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Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

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Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#81

Post by drewbug01 »

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

> All of my experiences

Why not detail some of those experiences? It would lend credibility to your post; because it otherwise reads to me like you’re repeating what you’ve heard about unions.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#82

Post by dang »

friedman23 wrote: post #42
glogla wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they want to be able to defend themselves from you and people like you (who own the means of living) from abusing and exploiting them. Why do you mind if they have a say? If you don't plan on abusing and exploiting them, there's no harm, right? EDIT: to put it into words I would think someone like you might understand better (power and money instead of empathy and solidarity) - because if you don't let them h…

I'm paying them, if they don't want to be exploited by me don't accept my money. > because if you don't let them have a say, and exploit them, you might end up in a gulag, on guillotine or in wherever mass grave Mao put landlords It always comes down to violence with you people.

Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political flamewar. Let alone personal attacks.

We've had to ask you repeatedly in the past not to break the site guidelines. Would you please review them and stick to the rules when posting here?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#83

Post by dang »

glogla wrote: post #35
friedman23 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I buy a sewing machine and hire someone to operate it, outside of basic safety rights why should the employee have any say in what I decide should be created with it?

Because they want to be able to defend themselves from you and people like you (who own the means of living) from abusing and exploiting them. Why do you mind if they have a say? If you don't plan on abusing and exploiting them, there's no harm, right? EDIT: to put it into words I would think someone like you might understand better (power and money instead of empathy and solidarity) - because if you don't let them h…

Please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological flamewars. Once a thread gets to the gulags it's never coming back.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#84

Post by pseudalopex »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #65
Despegar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I get that unions might be necessary in industries where workers are actually exploited, to protect said workers. But FAANG engineers are pretty much in the opposite situation. I don't like people creating an us-vs-them situation that doesn't exist The us-vs-them situation has always existed and it's always been political. It's been the monolith of management vs an individual worker. If you can't imagine anyone but…

I'd argue Hollywood unions are the perfect example of leaders inventing an us-vs-them situation. I would not want to belong to an organization like the WGA, where union leadership can force me to walk off my job for half a year because they don't think my current compensation structure is good enough.

A strike has to be authorized by the members. Members can choose to join the strike, accept the penalties in the bylaws, or quit the union.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#85

Post by ggambetta »

claudeganon wrote: post #37
ggambetta wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does owning a sewing machine suddenly bestow upon you dictatorial powers? Why do you insist in throwing the word "dictatorship" around? Owning a sewing machine and paying someone to use it on your behalf should absolutely bestow you the power to choose what that person makes for you, while being paid by you, and while using your machine. How can this be controversial?

I would say the premise that owning something gives you unilateral control over the actions of another person has historically and philosophically been quite controversial. Why did peasants revolt over feudal ownership of land? Why did indigenous people revolt against settler colonialism? Why did the American Civil War happen?

> I would say the premise that owning something gives you unilateral control over the actions of another person

You're conveniently ignoring the part in which I'm also paying the other person to do something, after the other person freely agreed to do said thing in exchange for being paid. Would you mind replying to what I'm actually saying?

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#86

Post by ggambetta »

claudeganon wrote: post #38
ggambetta wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve yet to see any rational or coherent defense of why these (or any) companies should function like democracies. Company X offers to pay me to do job Y. My two options, as I see it, are taking the job and doing Y, or refusing to do Y and therefore not taking the job. I don't understand the logic of "I'll take the job but then refuse to do Y", except if I assume ill-intent from the person taking the job.

The broader condition of wage-labor is (in the absence of unions) of course though that you agree to some form of top-down power relation or starve and die. Unions contest this broader premise as opposed to your specific one.

> or starve and die

I reject your strawman argument. FAANG engineers will hardly starve and die if they choose to work somewhere else.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#87

Post by ggambetta »

drewbug01 wrote: post #81
ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

> All of my experiences Why not detail some of those experiences? It would lend credibility to your post; because it otherwise reads to me like you’re repeating what you’ve heard about unions.

Sure.

Had some bullshit waste of time while setting up a booth at GDC because we weren't allowed to unload the boxes with our stuff, or something like that.

I was born and raised in Uruguay, and cases of people openly stealing from their workplace that couldn't be fired because the union would strike until they were reinstated were commonplace, both in the public and private sector.

Someone close to me who owns a factory, again in Uruguay, was for some time under threat from the unions, who openly tried to bankrupt the company, so that they could take ownership, due to a law that entitles them to do that.

I've seen unions impede technological progress in every sector because it threatens their jobs. Who cares if it improves the experience for the customers / citizens? They take the whole company / city hostage to get away with what they want, and/or damage the premises (https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/asi-quedo-la-planta-de-...). That's also why in Montevideo every bus has two people, one to drive, the other sitting next to the automatic ticket selling machine, to put your money in, and hand you the ticket it prints. Who pays for having twice the people needed in that bus? The people.

I've seen the unions used to destabilize governments of parties who weren't ideologically affiliated with the people running the unions (the extreme left).

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#88

Post by ggambetta »

DoubleGlazing wrote: post #62
ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

The problem with FAANG jobs is that while the pay is good, they expect a lot out of you. Look at how Googles offices are designed to keep workers on site. Sure the money is good and the perks are nice, but if you're doing 60 hours a week instead of the 40 that you signed up for then the deal doesn't seem all that good in hindsight.

I used to work at Google. That's a myth. I wasn't doing 60 hours a week, and I didn't know anyone who was doing more than 40 unless they really really wanted to.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#89

Post by 0x445442 »

bluejekyll wrote: post #23
0x445442 wrote: post #14

> They’re part of a three-member Republican cabal Whatever the merits of the article I have a hard time taking it seriously with this kind of language. If this kind of language were used in the other direction the author would immediately be labeled a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist.

Is it the cabal label that bothers you? For context, the sentence before: > Ring and Kaplan want to reconsider the longtime ban on labor spying. It’s a sleazy idea, but typical for these two. So they are working together, and perhaps “cabal” is too colorful of a term, as it also implies doing it in secret. It would appear they’re quite open about it.

I’m bothered by the double standard when it comes to the use of language. As someone whose politics mostly lines up Libertarian I support individuals’ freedom to organize with the goal to collective bargain. I also oppose any legislation aimed at undermining that goal.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#90

Post by rayiner »

claudeganon wrote: post #76
rayiner wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academic works like this one by an NYU law professor? https://muse.jhu.edu/book/10740 > Nowhere in the world has organized crime infiltrated the labor movement as effectively as in the United States. Yet the government, the AFL-CIO, and the civil liberties community all but ignored the situation for most of the twentieth century. Since 1975, however, the FBI, Department of Justice, and the federal judiciary have rele…

You can litter this thread with as many comments about organized crime and labor as you like, but it no way describes the entire history of labor struggle in the US and elsewhere or it’s overall bent (you admit this yourself in relation to European unions). And is it actually your supposition that a union at a place like Google is going to be taken over by the mob? Who do you expect to believe this line? If you want…

I didn't say it "describes the entire history of labor struggle." But you were responding to someone who listed his views on the bad things about his experience with unions. Discussions of the merits of unions in the U.S. are incomplete without mentioning their ties to organized crime. (And I strongly suspect that, if those links hadn't existed, unions would be stronger in the U.S. today, as they are in Europe.)
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