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Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

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Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Except the 8 hour work-day and weekends, I guess? https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

That was in 1938. The status quo is different today, so that doesn't really apply.

The status quo is people being pressured into overtime, and having to juggle multiple part-time jobs that add up to more than 40 hours/week.

It still applies, and the status quo can get worse as soon as worker's power wanes.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I buy a sewing machine and hire someone to operate it, outside of basic safety rights why should the employee have any say in what I decide should be created with it?

Why shouldn’t they? Does owning a sewing machine suddenly bestow upon you dictatorial powers? I’m being a bit hyperbolic here, but it’s funny that the circumstances you cite (sewing, basic safety) actually drove unionization in the early 20th century. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_... Turns out that if you don’t change the relations of power in your workplace, hold your bosses to account…

> Does owning a sewing machine suddenly bestow upon you dictatorial powers?

Why do you insist in throwing the word "dictatorship" around?

Owning a sewing machine and paying someone to use it on your behalf should absolutely bestow you the power to choose what that person makes for you, while being paid by you, and while using your machine. How can this be controversial?

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#33

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

I’m not sure that this is a pro-union stance or not, but I’ve always thought that workers of a public company should be allowed to elect a board representative (number of seats to allocate determined by something associated with the number of employees). Would this help bring that worker view/control to the company?

What you’re describing is codetermination, was driven as policy by unions in various forms across Europe, most notably in Germany:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#34

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

I’ve yet to see any rational or coherent defense of why these (or any) companies should function like democracies. Company X offers to pay me to do job Y. My two options, as I see it, are taking the job and doing Y, or refusing to do Y and therefore not taking the job. I don't understand the logic of "I'll take the job but then refuse to do Y", except if I assume ill-intent from the person taking the job.

What about the logic of collective bargaining? Why should workers have to remain divided and alone, against highly organized capital?

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#35

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

If I buy a sewing machine and hire someone to operate it, outside of basic safety rights why should the employee have any say in what I decide should be created with it?

Because they want to be able to defend themselves from you and people like you (who own the means of living) from abusing and exploiting them.

Why do you mind if they have a say? If you don't plan on abusing and exploiting them, there's no harm, right?

EDIT: to put it into words I would think someone like you might understand better (power and money instead of empathy and solidarity) - because if you don't let them have a say, and exploit them, you might end up in a gulag, on guillotine or in wherever mass grave Mao put landlords.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#36
post #22

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

College-educated people who make good salaries have this vision of unions as the silver bullet solution for the working class. I don’t think they know any working class people with union experience, as unions are unquestionably a mixed bag. For some anecdata, my dad’s a musician and a guy he plays with is a janitor for his full time job, and he is diehard anti-union out of life experience.

My grandfather and dad both worked factory jobs and were both “diehard anti-union”.

After asking a few questions I got the sense that they were both convinced of the evils of unions by the employers propaganda. They would show them videos and have occasional anti-organizing events were the company basically said “you organize and everyone will lose their jobs”.

One year I remember that organization was talked about by my dad around Christmas time. They shutdown the factory for a couple of weeks (to really hurt the workers during the holidays)and sent out letters saying that unions were responsible for the shutdown and this would only continue if they organized.

Another time when asking my grandpa about unions he told me that the owner of the factory took good care of employees and didn’t need a union. That his boss would throw a big Annual party with raffles and a $1000 grand prize. But if anyone ever thought about a union, all parties would be canceled and lots of people laid off. It was part of his speech almost every year.

Of course my blue collar immigrant family would be scared of unions, their employers basically held their jobs over their heads.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t they? Does owning a sewing machine suddenly bestow upon you dictatorial powers? I’m being a bit hyperbolic here, but it’s funny that the circumstances you cite (sewing, basic safety) actually drove unionization in the early 20th century. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_... Turns out that if you don’t change the relations of power in your workplace, hold your bosses to account…

> Does owning a sewing machine suddenly bestow upon you dictatorial powers? Why do you insist in throwing the word "dictatorship" around? Owning a sewing machine and paying someone to use it on your behalf should absolutely bestow you the power to choose what that person makes for you, while being paid by you, and while using your machine. How can this be controversial?

I would say the premise that owning something gives you unilateral control over the actions of another person has historically and philosophically been quite controversial. Why did peasants revolt over feudal ownership of land? Why did indigenous people revolt against settler colonialism? Why did the American Civil War happen?

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#38

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

I’ve yet to see any rational or coherent defense of why these (or any) companies should function like democracies. Company X offers to pay me to do job Y. My two options, as I see it, are taking the job and doing Y, or refusing to do Y and therefore not taking the job. I don't understand the logic of "I'll take the job but then refuse to do Y", except if I assume ill-intent from the person taking the job.

The broader condition of wage-labor is (in the absence of unions) of course though that you agree to some form of top-down power relation or starve and die. Unions contest this broader premise as opposed to your specific one.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#39

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

I’ve yet to see any rational or coherent defense of why these (or any) companies should function like democracies. Company X offers to pay me to do job Y. My two options, as I see it, are taking the job and doing Y, or refusing to do Y and therefore not taking the job. I don't understand the logic of "I'll take the job but then refuse to do Y", except if I assume ill-intent from the person taking the job.

It is better for both individuals and society at large if we are able to not only generate material wealth, but also do so within systems of our own design which allow us to generate said wealth through voluntary cooperation.

You are of course correct that any person is technically free to reject any particular job, but someone with an interest in both continuing to be able to provide for themselves and their family as well as in bringing about structural shifts that would allow for much truer freedom might refuse to perform a particular function for reasons other than ill intent.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#40
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Except the 8 hour work-day and weekends, I guess? https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

That was in 1938. The status quo is different today, so that doesn't really apply.

One of the biggest employee complaints at almost every tech company I've worked at is a lack of work life balance. Most of my friends who still work in the bay struggle with having a life outside of work. Wanting to work 40 hours a week can be seen as not being dedicated enough, or not being a cultural fit.

I think that's one of the most relevant needs that would drive tech workers to form a union.

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