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Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

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Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#81

Post by pnw_hazor »

prewett wrote: post #68
larnmar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should read “Chinese Government”, not China, too. The Chinese government was not elected by the Chinese, is not in any sense a legitimate representative of the Chinese, and has no more right to rule over China than I do. Conflating criticism of the CCP with criticism of the country that they illegitimately rule is CCP propaganda techniques 101.

Mao Zedong was widely liked, and the Communists were seen as much better than the corrupt Guomindang [0]. They also defeated the Guomindang militarily. I think the CCP are actually the legitimate rulers of mainland China, both by peoples' choice and military conquest. You may think the Chinese people chose poorly, but I think it is clear that they definitely chose. And to put this in some context, China has had an au…

In the absence of free elections, due process, freedom of speech, freedom of association, opposition parties, freedom of travel, and so on, you can put me in the not convinced column.

IMO China is not ruled by a legitimate government, the Chinese government should not be granted the honor of national sovereignty any more than North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, or the like. Geographic regions ruled by gangs and thugs should not considered legal states. (Just my opinion man, I know the law doesn't agree with me.)

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#82

Post by mistersquid »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #79
mistersquid wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodatung work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their employer’s position about their country of origin. Such an implicit critique undermines the foun…

> You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their employer’s position about their country of origin Why is this relevant? By that definition, any time you criticize anything someone says you are criticizing them for using free speech. There is a big difference between “I disagree with what you’re saying” and “you should…

> There is a big difference between “I disagree with what you’re saying” and “you shouldn’t be allowed to say it”. As far as I can tell, he isn’t even hinting at the latter.

The GGP is not merely saying "I disagree with what you're saying" but rather "I disagree with what you're saying because you are well-compensated (and allowed to speak freely)." (The last clause is a bizarre objection, but it is present in the GGP comment.)

This is problematic because in the US, where Facebook is concerned, free speech is not granted only to the poorly-compensated but to all residents. So pointing out how well-compensated the employees are as a way of criticizing them undermines their access to free speech. It is an attempt to silence them because they enjoy privileges such as good compensation and the ability to speak freely.

And to be clear: criticizing Chinese Facebook employees for complaining about the CEO's position to their country of origin because they are well-paid is an attempt to nullify their points because they are well-paid (and allowed to speak freely). The criticism doesn't address the root of the objection but instead attacks the employees (i.e. ad hominem).

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#83

Post by thisgoodlife »

mtnGoat wrote: post #80
taobility wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard the news that Mark has learnt Chinese very hard, and even placed Xi's book at his office desk trying to please the visited Chinese officials? He didn't have any spine, and what he's doing right now just because he failed so have to change the strategy.

Do you have a source for this? your past comments are very pro Chinese and also reference "other news" without citation. Trying hard to prop up the motherland in the public eye?

Not OP. Did some quick search and found this https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-keeps-a-book...

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#84

Post by [deleted] »

Cookingboy wrote: post #49
larnmar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should read “Chinese Government”, not China, too. The Chinese government was not elected by the Chinese, is not in any sense a legitimate representative of the Chinese, and has no more right to rule over China than I do. Conflating criticism of the CCP with criticism of the country that they illegitimately rule is CCP propaganda techniques 101.

What is legitimacy? A government's job is to serve as many of its people as much as possible for as long as possible, so playing devil's advocate, why isn't the legitimacy of a government judged by how good it's doing its job vs. how it came into power? Historically speaking there have been plenty of prosperous societies that was ruled by "illegitimate" governments (and I'm not even saying China is one), and plenty o…

[deleted]

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#85

Post by carapace »

helen___keller wrote: post #62
thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some fundamental ways that's hard for western countries to understand. First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tau…

> First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government. this is a fundamental viewpoint of how the chinese see themselves Do people actually believe this? How could you possibly hope to pu…

OP is being stridently racist. If trolling, 6/10, not bad. If earnest, hilarious and sad.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#86

Post by mdni007 »

taobility wrote: post #39
umvi wrote: post #7

Title should read: "Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils (Chinese) Facebook Employees" At any rate, I applaud Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook.

Have you heard the news that Mark has learnt Chinese very hard, and even placed Xi's book at his office desk trying to please the visited Chinese officials? He didn't have any spine, and what he's doing right now just because he failed so have to change the strategy.

or maybe because his wife is Chinese?

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#87

Post by throwGuardian »

mistersquid wrote: post #24
throwGuardian wrote: post #5

Puzzle me this - as an employee in the US, for a company paying well above market for your labor, with generous perks and the freedom to speak out against the employer (which is likely absent in China), the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodating work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech Or, the press is out to make a mountain of…

> the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodatung work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their employer’s position about their country of origin. Such an implicit critique undermines the foun…

> Speech is free regardless of the benefits and privileges granted to those who would speak.

You're copiously misinterpreting my comment. Of course free speech is an inherent privilege, nay human right, that doesn't require granting from any entity/authority figure. I'm very much questioning the logic behind their angst against Zucks' opinions on China. If anything, the free flow of information, free speech without retaliation and the general upliftment by being at FB should convince them to argue FOR free speech in China. I was hoping they saw the clear correlation between freedoms, free-speech, etc as the foundation for equitable wealth creation and prosperity, which they very much have experienced at FB.

I'm guessing their reaction is more visceral/emotional than logical. Most people tend to love their motherland despite it's shortcomings.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#88

Post by mistersquid »

throwGuardian wrote: post #87
mistersquid wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodatung work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their employer’s position about their country of origin. Such an implicit critique undermines the foun…

> Speech is free regardless of the benefits and privileges granted to those who would speak. You're copiously misinterpreting my comment. Of course free speech is an inherent privilege, nay human right, that doesn't require granting from any entity/authority figure. I'm very much questioning the logic behind their angst against Zucks' opinions on China. If anything, the free flow of information, free speech without r…

> You're copiously misinterpreting my comment.

Hm. I don’t think I misread or misinterpreted as much as your sparing comment leaves many lines to read between.

In any case, I my inference does not match your intended meaning and I appreciate your clarification.

Free speech should be an inherent right. I also LOVE the idea that such employees might use this as an opportunity to advocate for free speech in their hime countries.

I don’t however see such advocacy as a requirement to criticize Zuckerberg.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#89

Post by Cookingboy »

larnmar wrote: post #71
Cookingboy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is legitimacy? A government's job is to serve as many of its people as much as possible for as long as possible, so playing devil's advocate, why isn't the legitimacy of a government judged by how good it's doing its job vs. how it came into power? Historically speaking there have been plenty of prosperous societies that was ruled by "illegitimate" governments (and I'm not even saying China is one), and plenty o…

Legitimacy comes from having been elected. An unelected Government is, as they say, just a group of thugs who just happen to be in control of a capital city. Within that definition there’s certainly some ambiguity as to what counts as a “good enough” election to confer legitimacy. Edge cases would be things like Singapore, Russia or Hitler’s Germany... but Communist China is not close to an edge case.

>Legitimacy comes from having been elected.

Says who? Is there an universal law declared by someone at the beginning of time saying that?

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