Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 128 posts

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#81

Post by mikeash »

DanBC wrote: post #64
Jonnax wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old is this man? He's not stupid. He knows what he's doing. What a cop out to say "no he was just really hung up about grammar. "

He's autistic and he probably has trouble with communication. He might not know that it's a terrible idea to quibble about why his preferred definition of assault is better than the commonly accepted and used definition.

Surely an autistic person is still capable of learning these things.

If he is not capable of that, then he’s disastrously unqualified to be leading an advocacy organization.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#82

Post by AstralStorm »

mikeash wrote: post #66
xkapastel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong about it is that Epstein is running a child sex trafficking ring. It's not clear what Minsky knew.

Best case scenario for Minsky, if he did have sex with this girl, is that he was tricked into raping her. But RMS isn’t going with that. He’s going with “not rape.”

Forced sex work by one man, very unscrupulous behavior by the other. I do not believe he got tricked, just didn't care.

Different from raping a prostitute, for example. Not rape, not sexual assault, still terrible.

It's still terrible and should be gone, and the likes who do sex trafficking locked up for eternity. The clients punished, yes, but not with the ultimate extent of sexual assault laws, unless it can be shown they were complicit in the scheme.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#83

Post by dymk »

prepend wrote: post #21
yeahthat wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that if the opinion in question is “maybe pedophilia is ok” I am OK with the speaker being shut down and/or banished.

It depends a lot on the context. I wouldn’t want to work on a project with a pedophile. But if someone was having a conversation about early Islam and trying to understand the cultures of that time, etc then that’s an example where your statement wouldn’t be ban worthy. I just don’t think there’s a clear set of bad things that can’t be said. Programmers I know are frequently doing thought exercises so even something…

> It depends a lot on the context

The context is Epstein and RMS claiming that this woman trafficked by him was willing. We don't need to pontificate about all these hypothetical scenarios; this concrete thing that he's defending is pretty disgusting.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#84

Post by AstralStorm »

Jonnax wrote: post #35
interfixus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which - to the best of my knowledge - Stallman has never defended.

“ I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily [sic] pedophilia harms children.” https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20...

It does, but how badly, it depends? What are the worst kinds, what are relatively harmless if any?

Does our current handling thereof help or harm?

If those questions are not answered, we're flying blind.

Also there are some stupid things done like putting 18 y.o. boy in jail for sleeping with his 16 y.o. girlfriend, consensually.

Someone should do actual not politically correct and not victim culture motivated research.

It would be hard work, reaching out to the victims and running longitudinal observation.

If there is such research, I'd like to read it.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#85

Post by AstralStorm »

mjg59 wrote: post #52
interfixus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who might prefer unredacted, here's what Stallman is reported to have said: "The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing.Only that they had sex. We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would hav…

Of course, the definition of "sexual assault" presumes no such thing.

The law definition in the United States, you mean.

In Poland, it requires use of force or coercion on part of the person doing the sexual act. Without it, say drugging and then letting someone else do it, it's "just" assault. (The other person is committing sexual assault.)

What Epstein did is called pimping and also punishable by law. Potentially also abduction or assault. Forcing a minor to commence a sexual act is a separate category of pimping (pimping a minor) that's yet more harshly punished.

Sex with minor is also punishable by law separately. (With some exceptions and discretion by the judge.) Now there is a strong association with sexual assault, though circumstances can leave it as just sex with minor. Depends on prosecutor and judge.

So it is likely Epstein would be convicted of multiple crimes and potentially recidivism (repeat offense) and organized crime, while Minsky would be convicted for sex with minor, not any kind of assault.

Note that repeat offense means Epstein would not be offered bail nor allowed a reduced sentence.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#86

Post by eesmith »

zzzcpan wrote: post #75
mjg59 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't one problematic statement. It's a history of behaviour that's documented to have driven multiple people away from the free software community and an absolute unwillingness on his part to do anything about it. If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already.

> If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already. You are making a baseless assumption that it hurts the movement and are using it to push a change in leadership to someone, who is ideologically more aligned with your views (presumably, maybe you have hidden agendas, who knows). To me it seems that politi…

What would provide sufficient base for you to accept that statement?

Because I think there is some basis in that statement, given the many conversations I've had over the last 20 years I've known of free software, and known of people who dealt with Stallman.

Including my own experience.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#87

Post by krapp »

zzzcpan wrote: post #77
pjc50 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. The problem is that not getting those people to stop doing that - or, if necessary, excluding them - causes them to exclude other people.

> The problem is that not getting those people to stop doing that - or, if necessary, excluding them - causes them to exclude other people. And getting those people to stop excludes people who don't like for anyone to force them to stop and to cave to the mobs.

Why are the people who object to Stallman's views "mobs" - a rabble mindlessly driven by rage and conformity - but "ignorant, rude and sexist" people who agree with him are not?

I have yet to see a mob mentality like that which forms to defend Richard Stallman at all costs.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#88

Post by prepend »

mikeash wrote: post #79
prepend wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Minsksy it’s at least statutory rape, not cool at all. For Epstein it’s the whole gamut of messed up stuff, also not cool. It seems to me that Stallman is saying that qualifying language is valuable as statutory rape in USVI (and most other jurisdictions) has a much smaller penalty than other forms of sexual assault. So using the same word for Epstein and Minsky is not fair, I think, to their victims. But saying…

He also spends a lot of time arguing that statutory rape shouldn’t count. So if he thinks that’s all Minsky did, it seems entirely fair to summarize that as “totally cool.” Not to mention that if Minsky did in fact have sex with a slave who was forced to do it, that’s real actual rape, and the best thing you could say there is that Minsky was somehow tricked into committing rape.

Lots of people think statutory rape shouldn’t count. In the British Virgin Islands the age of consent is 16, so the crime Minsky is accused of isn’t a crime a little while away. I don’t think it’s fair, or accurate, to characterize the entire population of the British VI as being “totally cool” with other forms of sexual assault and human trafficking.

I think the risk I run is in characterizing acts incorrectly. I’m not aware of anyone being charged with “actual rape” for having sex with human trafficked prostitutes in USVI. So it depends a lot on the facts of the case, etc etc.

We will have a tough time knowing what Minsky knew and didn’t know. I think it’s reasonable to know if a sex partner is legs age, but it’s much harder to know whether someone was exploiting someone against their will. But legally I’m not sure he would be charged with being “unwilling rape” or whatever crime you think he committed.

What I’m trying to point out is that someone can be against statutory rape, even against rape tricking, and not think it is “totally cool.”

Logically, it is not appropriate to make such leaps unless we have more info.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#89

Post by krapp »

DanBC wrote: post #64
Jonnax wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old is this man? He's not stupid. He knows what he's doing. What a cop out to say "no he was just really hung up about grammar. "

He's autistic and he probably has trouble with communication. He might not know that it's a terrible idea to quibble about why his preferred definition of assault is better than the commonly accepted and used definition.

>He's autistic and he probably has trouble with communication.

His job is communication. His eloquence, and the precision of his language have been praised more than once here.

And autism doesn't come with a "get out of social consequences" card. Certainly not for a sixty year old man.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#90

Post by pault »

tom_mellior wrote: post #13
deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

> Every topic is a hot potato. Yeah, you can't even condone raping children anymore. What has the world come to? More seriously, the point is that this topic is not enough of a hot potato if RMS is comfortable talking about it in public.

I don't disagree with you, but I think a lot of commenters here are talking past each other. We all agree that having sex with a 17 year old girl who is being abused and manipulated by a billionaire pedophile is inexcusable. I personally don't like the use of the phrase "child rape" to describe it because it's the same phrase you would use to describe the violent rape of a toddler. If the terminology we use to debate this subject equates those two acts, how can we ever have a reasoned discussion? One of those things makes you a sleezeball, and certainly deserving of all the social and professional consequences of your actions. The other makes you a vile monster, and deserving of removal from the earth. Both are crimes that warrant prosection. Failing to acknowledge the difference between the two is a dangerous path to go down.
Post reply on HN