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The Cult of Kubernetes

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Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#81

Post by philpem »

meddlepal wrote: post #41
goatinaboat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cycle of picking a tech, jumping ship to it, religiously evangelising it, riding the wave and then jumping ship to the next related tech is typical in my opinion. It is typical for devs. Meanwhile ops have to support every half-arsed tyre-fire technology until the end of time, because a dev wanted to try it once, and now it’s in prod with users relying on it. Kubernetes is in a sense the pushback against that “do…

I worked for someone who had mindset that whatever technology developers wanted was always good and ops should just shut up and put up with it because devs are the ones that make the money for the business. Very infuriating mindset to deal with.

I've seen this in a 50-person volunteer group. The devs turned up every year with a proposal to throw away and completely rewrite what they'd done the previous year. No incremental upgrades -- a complete rewrite every time.

This worked great when several other business systems relied on their vanity toy, and invariably the API would change with every release.

There's a balance to be struck between 'never change anything because it's always worked' and 'new shiny every week'. In my experience it's an absolute nightmare getting people to agree where the line is, and on top of that, get management to buy-in and push-back when either side oversteps.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#82

Post by twic »

oblio wrote: post #65
tomxor wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cycle of picking a tech, jumping ship to it, religiously evangelising it, riding the wave and then jumping ship to the next related tech is typical in my opinion. To balance this with a counter example from the quieter group of people not "hot for the latest tech": I'm a "dev" and i've never had this problem, however I work for a small company, where everything I make and deploy I also have to maintain in some…

You're not eliminating "dev ops", you're doing it right.

Eliminating dev ops is doing it right! The whole entire point of devops, as it was originally formed, was that making developers bear the load of operations would encourage them to simplify and automate it.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#83

Post by twic »

thewarrior wrote: post #56
usgroup wrote: post #12

I think devs often make bad decision makers because in some sense tech is often an addiction rather than a pragmatic choice. The cycle of picking a tech, jumping ship to it, religiously evangelising it, riding the wave and then jumping ship to the next related tech is typical in my opinion. I try hard to correct for this bias but sometimes struggle with exactly the same thing. There's just something about wanting to…

I think jumping on new tech and marketing yourself is a good decision for a developer as its a good way to increase their compensation and market value. If you're a developer stuck maintaining a Java spring app at some unknown company the best way to make a shift is to pick up Go or something and move to a startup. Else your career will stagnate. The best way to get promoted at many companies is to write a framework.…

Is this really true? There are plenty of job openings for people who are good at maintaining Java Spring apps!

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#84

Post by k__ »

xena wrote: post #78
oaf357 wrote: post #62

Calling it a cult after growing up in one is a bit insulting. But, yes, I don't run much on my personal K8s clusters. But, I've lost count of how many problems Kubernetes has solved for folks I've worked with. It might not solve the simplicity use cases but, that's not the intended design of the tool to begin with.

- The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader - Questioning, doubt and dissent are discouraged or even punished - Mind-altering practices are used in excess to suppress doubts (corporate-speak counts) - The group is elitist - The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society - The leader is not accountable to any authorities - The…

Serverless, serverless, server...oh wait!

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#85

Post by jmartrican »

xena wrote: post #53

Author of the post here, feel free to ask me anything!

Thank you for posting your experience. I am starting on the same path. I am at the point where I got the deployment working and a pod setup. Now I need to be able to access my service from the Internet using a DNS name and SSL certs. Before reading your post I didn't realize how many supporting characters would be needed to do this. It feels daunting and am grateful you posted your scripts and configurations.

I'm running AWS k8s. Did you look into AWS k8s, and if so any reason why you didn't pick it?

edit: 2nd question. How is service discovery handled in your setup?

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#86

Post by jazoom »

xena wrote: post #78
oaf357 wrote: post #62

Calling it a cult after growing up in one is a bit insulting. But, yes, I don't run much on my personal K8s clusters. But, I've lost count of how many problems Kubernetes has solved for folks I've worked with. It might not solve the simplicity use cases but, that's not the intended design of the tool to begin with.

- The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader - Questioning, doubt and dissent are discouraged or even punished - Mind-altering practices are used in excess to suppress doubts (corporate-speak counts) - The group is elitist - The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society - The leader is not accountable to any authorities - The…

Wow this is accurate in my experience (actual cult, not dev culture). Where did you find this list?

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#87

Post by turk73 »

taneq wrote: post #50
goatinaboat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cycle of picking a tech, jumping ship to it, religiously evangelising it, riding the wave and then jumping ship to the next related tech is typical in my opinion. It is typical for devs. Meanwhile ops have to support every half-arsed tyre-fire technology until the end of time, because a dev wanted to try it once, and now it’s in prod with users relying on it. Kubernetes is in a sense the pushback against that “do…

It's typical for web application devs . There is a huge ecosystem of software developers outside of web services who are much less fad-happy and much more focused on using established tools to produce useful, reliable systems.

Really? Where are these places? I have worked in all kinds of industries and shops big and small, from universities to now Fortune 10 and none of these places had it together, none of them. The closest we have gotten is right now with Kubernetes. Is it perfect? No. The team that supports our cluster has a lot of growing to do. But compared to VMs and every other technology I have worked with, Kubernetes with Helm is excellent.

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#88

Post by turk73 »

dagw wrote: post #52
meddlepal wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for someone who had mindset that whatever technology developers wanted was always good and ops should just shut up and put up with it because devs are the ones that make the money for the business. Very infuriating mindset to deal with.

And I've worked at companies where the devs where expected to know their place and not question ops, because ops was seen as the serious adults in the room keeping things running and devs where seen as easily distracted children chasing after the shiniest thing that most recently caught their attention. Made perfect sense when I was on the ops side and was super annoying when I was on the dev side :) Imagine if peopl…

The place like that where I worked ended up doubling down on AS/400. I laughed out loud and then quit. What a bunch of idiots! I don't know how they are even still in business. Dev cycles were 6-12 mos. Imagine asking for a feature and then getting it on a green screen in 12 months!

Re: The Cult of Kubernetes

#90

Post by merb »

tomxor wrote: post #64
usgroup wrote: post #12

I think devs often make bad decision makers because in some sense tech is often an addiction rather than a pragmatic choice. The cycle of picking a tech, jumping ship to it, religiously evangelising it, riding the wave and then jumping ship to the next related tech is typical in my opinion. I try hard to correct for this bias but sometimes struggle with exactly the same thing. There's just something about wanting to…

> The cycle of picking a tech, jumping ship to it, religiously evangelising it, riding the wave and then jumping ship to the next related tech is typical in my opinion. To balance this with a counter example from the quieter group of people not "hot for the latest tech": I'm a "dev" and i've never had this problem, however I work for a small company, where everything I make and deploy I also have to maintain in some…

well even in a small company you might need:

- non downtime deployments (yes you can have a downtime, but everytime you deploy an app?!)

- schedule more than one thing (no company has a single product that only has a single binary or at least nearly no company, there are some unicorns tough)

- some kind of automation (this is complex, no matter what you use)

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