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What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

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Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#81

Post by moltar »

dbingham wrote: post #28
rongenre wrote: post #3

I stopped eating meat 6 years ago. I miss it, but decided to try going veg-only + eggs/dairy and see how it impacted my life. If I found myself unable to keep up with my exercise routines (bicycling and sporadic weight work), I'd have stopped. But it really didn't affect things, and I find myself unable to justify the cruelty of meat production. One note: I did notice that it's tougher to control carb intake while ea…

The problem with the ethical argument - that meat production is cruel and vegetable production is not - is that it makes all kinds of assumptions about plant anatomy and behavior that may be wrong. In fact, the growing field of plant behavior strongly suggests that those assumptions are wrong. That plants aren't unthinking, unfeeling at all, but every bit as alive and aware of their environment as animals. It's a rea…

And during plant collection lots of animals die:

- rodents die in wheat field during harvest

- recently there was an article on HN of olive harvests killing hundreds of birds

- entire forests are destroyed with wildlife by burning to grow palms for palm oil

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#82

Post by xnx »

dbingham wrote: post #28
rongenre wrote: post #3

I stopped eating meat 6 years ago. I miss it, but decided to try going veg-only + eggs/dairy and see how it impacted my life. If I found myself unable to keep up with my exercise routines (bicycling and sporadic weight work), I'd have stopped. But it really didn't affect things, and I find myself unable to justify the cruelty of meat production. One note: I did notice that it's tougher to control carb intake while ea…

The problem with the ethical argument - that meat production is cruel and vegetable production is not - is that it makes all kinds of assumptions about plant anatomy and behavior that may be wrong. In fact, the growing field of plant behavior strongly suggests that those assumptions are wrong. That plants aren't unthinking, unfeeling at all, but every bit as alive and aware of their environment as animals. It's a rea…

If you're worried about plants, you shouldn't eat animals, because they eat a lot more plants than you would.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#83

Post by User23 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #70

Upon skim, the study appears to be about the relationship between meat consumption and colon cancer, not the more general question of what role it plays in a healthy diet. Everything I have ever read seems to indicate that people who are strict vegetarians, especially strict vegans, have trouble getting enough B vitamins. If you consume some animal products, such as seafood but not beef or chicken ("pescatarian"), th…

On the other hand a pescatarian diet exposes you to lots of delicious heavy metals and mercury, which also have their downsides.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#84

Post by vfc1 »

sridca wrote: post #69
vfc1 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be from a magazine sponsored by the meat industry, so it could be why it was taken down - https://academic.oup.com/af/pages/About

What "meat industry"? From the quoted link: > These organizations are dedicated to the advancement and dissemination of science-based knowledge concerning animal agriculture. This is a scientific magazine on a particular domain (animal agriculture). Even so, this article should be discussed on its own. And its author, Dr. David M Klurfeld, is not associated with the meat industry. If you just want to suppress discuss…

There is an undeniable conflict between an article published in a publication financially sponsored by a given industry and the results that benefit that industry.

A study has shown that studies funded by a particular industry are 85 times more likely to bring results that favor the funding industry, so money has a huge influence.

The tobacco industry used this tactic for decades, the strategy is simple. To question the claims that a product is unhealthy, without ever actually denying it.

All they have to do is create doubt, and the public will be confused, throw their hands up in the air and eat whatever.

In the words of a famous memo leaked in the tobacco industry: "doubt is our business".

Here is a summary of the multiple tactics used by the tobacco industry, one of them is precisely to publish studies that aim at raising doubt, without actually addressing the health concerns - https://www.who.int/tobacco/media/en/TobaccoExplained.pdf

But I don't know if that is why the article was taken down, I'm just speculating. Probably the flagging happens automatically, after a certain number of manual flags.

Indeed there is a lack of transparency about why certain articles are taken down, at least a reason should be given.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#85

Post by vfc1 »

HNestUnCulte wrote: post #76
vfc1 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just means that the population cancer rates in general just keep rising, and adopters of the paleo diet which is promoted as a meat-based health diet have even higher levels of certain cancer biomarkers. The current science says that processed meat is a known carcinogen, and red meat a likely carcinogen. This The places with the highest lifespan have all low animal product diets and are known as the blue zones - h…

> Did you see the source of the article? It's a journal sponsored by the meat industry - https://academic.oup.com/af/pages/About You keep repeating this all over this thread, but this is an academic journal specializing on animal agriculture (it says the same thing in the link). Besides, the OP should be discussed on its own.

Check the sponsors of the multiple organizations linked in the About page, here is one - https://academic.oup.com/af/pages/About

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#86

Post by vfc1 »

smarkov wrote: post #75
vfc1 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just means that the population cancer rates in general just keep rising, and adopters of the paleo diet which is promoted as a meat-based health diet have even higher levels of certain cancer biomarkers. The current science says that processed meat is a known carcinogen, and red meat a likely carcinogen. This The places with the highest lifespan have all low animal product diets and are known as the blue zones - h…

What if the adopters of the paleo diet have turned to it because they are already suffering from a disease and it's the most popular healthy option? While the animal products consumption per person has increased in the US, so have other factors such as stress, depression, loneliness, alcohol consumption and a sedentary lifestyle which all contribute to diseases. And if you pay close attention, the reduction of all th…

The level of the TMAO biomarker is higher in meat eaters especially paleo eaters, and lower in strict vegetarians.

Actually, strict vegetarians when fed meat won't even produce TMAO, because they don't have the gut bacteria that produces it as its a meat-eating bacteria.

Note that depression is also linked to food consumption and impaired gut health, which is linked to a diet heavy in animal products.

In the blue zones, clearly the biggest factor is the diet which is almost 100% plant based. There is this correlation between health and plant-based diets everywhere.

In the US for example, meat eaters have higher body weight than vegetarians, which have a higher body weight than strict vegetarians. Actually, strict vegetarians are the only ones of those groups that have a normal body weight.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#87

Post by smarkov »

vfc1 wrote: post #86
smarkov wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the adopters of the paleo diet have turned to it because they are already suffering from a disease and it's the most popular healthy option? While the animal products consumption per person has increased in the US, so have other factors such as stress, depression, loneliness, alcohol consumption and a sedentary lifestyle which all contribute to diseases. And if you pay close attention, the reduction of all th…

The level of the TMAO biomarker is higher in meat eaters especially paleo eaters, and lower in strict vegetarians. Actually, strict vegetarians when fed meat won't even produce TMAO, because they don't have the gut bacteria that produces it as its a meat-eating bacteria. Note that depression is also linked to food consumption and impaired gut health, which is linked to a diet heavy in animal products. In the blue zon…

> In the blue zones, clearly the biggest factor is the diet which is almost 100% plant based.

Clearly you are extremely biased and refuse to look at things in any other way but life doesn't revolve around "I eat animals or I don't".

Vegans aren't immune to cancer or heart diseases (they only have a small reduction of these in some studies) and they don't live 20-30-40-50 years longer than omnivores. And the reason vegans weigh less is because they're more aware of how much they eat compared to the mostly uneducated (in terms of nutrition) population.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#88

Post by simonask »

sauwan wrote: post #58
simonask wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people who have the means to do so probably would. However, the killing in itself is very difficult to defend at all, in my opinion. You very quickly run into some sketchy philosophical dead-ends, such as for example the notion that human life fundamentally has some kind of divine right to make decisions of life and death over lesser lifeforms.

>divine right to make decisions of life and death over lesser lifeforms Are plants not lesser lifeforms? I ask this as someone who does not eat factory farmed meat and buys nearly all organic produce, from local farms if possible. But I just don't find this argument compelling. It's not our "divine right", it's just a survival mechanism for our species. There are other much more compelling arguments for avoiding meat…

It is hopefully obvious to everyone that a plant does not suffer in the same way that a cow does.

Add to this that many plants actually rely on being consumed for reproduction. Sure, our sewage systems prevents it from actually working, but it is clearly not a crime in any metaphysical sense to consume a fruit that contains seeds.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#89

Post by GrzegorzWidla »

scandinavegan wrote: post #52
thomascgalvin wrote: post #6

The short answer is that we don't know. Refreshingly enough, this article seems to focus on that fact. There are studies that say eating meat will give you cancer, or just kill you younger in general, but there are studies that show the opposite, and studies that show no correlation. And pretty much all of these studies have issues, the biggest usually being, as the article says, that they're observational, based on…

> We just don't know, and anyone that tells you they do know is either selling you something or, at best, telling you what worked for them. I read a great newspaper article ten or so years ago. The journalist visited a vegan and a person following LCHF (low carb high fat). Both said that their diet made them feel great, made them lose weight, gave them lots of energy, kept them free of illness, and so on. The journal…

I'm quite late but will still comment...

While both high quality keto (grass fed, wild caught etc.) and high carb whole food plant based diet will make you feel great only one of those is sustainable for all people on the planet to do.

If we put all cows we have currently in the world on pastures we'd have to use all land of North and South America combined and we would - even with all that land, removing Amazon and total destruction - only be able to feed 3 billion people.

I've tried both of those diets for significantly long time. I feel good on both. High carb one is cheaper, foods are faster to prepare, it's easier to eat out (yes, if you're keto you won't get good, clean, unprocessed meat easily while a simple salad is available everywhere), animals get to live, environment gets to live - there are just too many benefits outside of your health alone.

Keto is an egoistic diet.

Re: What is the role of meat in a healthy diet?

#90

Post by GrzegorzWidla »

smarkov wrote: post #87
vfc1 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The level of the TMAO biomarker is higher in meat eaters especially paleo eaters, and lower in strict vegetarians. Actually, strict vegetarians when fed meat won't even produce TMAO, because they don't have the gut bacteria that produces it as its a meat-eating bacteria. Note that depression is also linked to food consumption and impaired gut health, which is linked to a diet heavy in animal products. In the blue zon…

> In the blue zones, clearly the biggest factor is the diet which is almost 100% plant based. Clearly you are extremely biased and refuse to look at things in any other way but life doesn't revolve around "I eat animals or I don't". Vegans aren't immune to cancer or heart diseases (they only have a small reduction of these in some studies) and they don't live 20-30-40-50 years longer than omnivores. And the reason ve…

Wrong. His data on BMI comes from Adventist study. Being healthy and taking care of their body is part of their religion so they are perfect study subject. Some eat everything, some eat fish and veggies, some eat veggies, eggs and milk and some eat only plants.

Of all of them - taking excercise, drugs, alcohol, smoking into account - vegans live the longest and have the most optimal weight.

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