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Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

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Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#81

Post by ivalm »

moosey wrote: post #60

The sunset comes for US hegemony for the same reason that China will not succeed long term, or even medium term, for that matter: Decision making that is oppositional to what technocracy would demand. I think that it's fine to take culture into decision making most of the time, but when your process turns a full 180 from what observation suggests is the proper course of action, you will run into long term issues soci…

> what technocracy would demand

This is a somewhat complicated issue. Remember, eugenics, humors, etc were all previously part of "technocracy" view of the world. I'm not saying we should embrace religion/superstition/etc as an answer, but decision making in the name of science/technology is not as fool-proof as many believe.

Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#82

Post by president »

yingw787 wrote: post #74
president wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, I'm not asserting anything. I'm merely proposing a theory that I haven't heard many people bring up. Not everything is an argument :)

That's not an acceptable response. Your comment that immigrants coming to the U.S. are nationalists representing their ethnic homelands and operate with an anti-American bias was highly inflammatory. Many immigrants (including me) come from a background of inter-generational trauma brought on by war/famine/tyranny and very much appreciate the existence of the U.S. and democracy. I think it's fair to say we might even…

You know, you should really try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have plenty of experience with people I've worked with not from the U.S. that have mentioned they would love to see the downfall of this country and I'm sure people would easily dismiss this as "anecdotal evidence" so I'm not sure what would make you happy here. Furthermore, if you read my post a bit more carefully, you would realize that I'm not making an umbrella statement.

It's very hard to have a critical discussion about things when people immediately point a finger and excuse someone of being inflammatory. It's ironic that you're saying I'm not fit of posting in an intellectual forum when you can't even entertain someone's thought experiment. Very sad the state of affairs on HN and even more sad when there is an unequal balance of voting/flagging power on this board.

P.S. If you haven't noticed, my post was flagged and taken down (quite unfairly if you ask me). I wrote two edits explaining my viewpoint in further detail but I guess you can't see that now.

Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#83

Post by moosey »

ivalm wrote: post #81
moosey wrote: post #60

The sunset comes for US hegemony for the same reason that China will not succeed long term, or even medium term, for that matter: Decision making that is oppositional to what technocracy would demand. I think that it's fine to take culture into decision making most of the time, but when your process turns a full 180 from what observation suggests is the proper course of action, you will run into long term issues soci…

> what technocracy would demand This is a somewhat complicated issue. Remember, eugenics, humors, etc were all previously part of "technocracy" view of the world. I'm not saying we should embrace religion/superstition/etc as an answer, but decision making in the name of science/technology is not as fool-proof as many believe.

That's why I mentioned observational data as well. The examples listed did not follow observational data, or followed flawed interpretations of data.

A contemporary example of the failure to follow what would be a true technocratic ideal would be how we are handling climate change.

Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#84

Post by yorwba »

csdreamer7 wrote: post #64
partiallypro wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one general issue is that Google has an AI center in China, and I'm sure there is 0 doubt from the intelligence community that the information Google's employees there have access to, etc is being infiltrated by Chinese spies. Not to mention just general projects Google is involved in within China itself, and its willingness to pay a price for entry (which is Chinese custom for foreign companies.) So, Google…

I like your speculation. Google's face recognition tech is the first tech that comes to mind of being a real issue (esp with Googlers). I think this is something people need to discuss more. Like, why is the US govt allowing companies to get US military contracts that allow CCP units access to their research centers?

Those CCP units are more a red herring than anything. The relevant law says "The grass-root organizations of the Communist Party of China in companies shall carry out their activities in accordance with the Constitution of the Communist Party of China." [1], which doesn't automatically imply that they get special access to anything. I think it's more a measure to boost membership than anything (the term "grass-root" is a strong hint).

I also wouldn't be too sure that Google employees outside China aren't spying for the CCP as well, and pulling out of China wouldn't protect against that.

Worrying about an AI research center in China only makes sense from a perspective of those Chinese researchers being more likely to later apply their experience at Chinese companies than if they moved to the US to work for Google, whereafter they might stay and continue working in the US.

[1] http://www.china.org.cn/english/government/207344.htm

Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#87

Post by bduerst »

_ptgt wrote: post #52
bduerst wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google refused to work on the machine vision for U.S. military drones that kill thousands of people (project maven). [1] Google's work in China is building an AI center to promote AI in general. [2] These are not the same things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence_arms_r... [2] http://fortune.com/2017/12/13/google-china-artificial-intell...

Is Google's AI work in China public though? If that's not the case, I see Dunford's point. The DoD does not have a unit in Deepmind ensuring all of their findings are evaluated for potential military usage as far as I know. Whereas that's certainly going to happening in any Google AI lab on China.

Not sure, though if we are speculating, it's most likely a talent acquisition move for recruiting the best data scientists in China, rather than some conspiracy to help the Chinese military.

Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#88

Post by coliveira »

creato wrote: post #69
coliveira wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a fallacy. If having a oligopoly is bad for the economy, it doesn't matter what other countries may want to do. Why weakening your economy, to satisfy the desires of an oligopoly, will be any better?

For the local national economy, an oligopoly seems possibly worse. On the international stage, it seems blindingly obvious that breaking up your local oligopoly to compete with larger foreign oligopolies or stated owned corporations is worse. Fundamentally, this is all about negotiating power, and the whole point of breaking up a monopoly/oligopoly is to reduce its negotiating power. But that's clearly a problem when…

Following your reasoning, we should just create and feed oligopolies to avoid, god help us, becoming "victims" of oligopolies from other countries... In other words, lets kill the competitiveness of the local economy, so that other countries won't be able to do just that. This is similar to the soldier who decides to commit suicide so that the foreign army won't have the chance to do so!

Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#89

Post by danielovichdk »

Pharmakon wrote: post #13
danielovichdk wrote: post #8

Google should embark on somerhing else in total, at least to get some of My respect. They are such an infantile company it seems.

Companies aren’t people, they don’t act like people and don’t have a person’s motivation. It’s a dangerous thing to talk or think as if they were. Companies like Google are a collection of people serving their own interests and desire to stay in power first and foremost, sometimes (if not often) at cross purposes with other people in the company doing the same. Incidentally the same is true of nations.

A company is and should have reflections of certain cultureal standards, such as not doing this kind of business with the chineese, when you are Google. It's bad management and a lacks morale.

I see companies as people, for sure. Without people and types of people, companies wouldn't act a certain way.

Re: Google's Work with China Eroding US Military Advantage, Dunford Says

#90

Post by ethbro »

coliveira wrote: post #88
creato wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the local national economy, an oligopoly seems possibly worse. On the international stage, it seems blindingly obvious that breaking up your local oligopoly to compete with larger foreign oligopolies or stated owned corporations is worse. Fundamentally, this is all about negotiating power, and the whole point of breaking up a monopoly/oligopoly is to reduce its negotiating power. But that's clearly a problem when…

Following your reasoning, we should just create and feed oligopolies to avoid, god help us, becoming "victims" of oligopolies from other countries... In other words, lets kill the competitiveness of the local economy, so that other countries won't be able to do just that. This is similar to the soldier who decides to commit suicide so that the foreign army won't have the chance to do so!

I believe you just described South Korea.
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