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If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

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81–90 of 277 posts

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#81

At the very least publically funded code should be open between government departments. There seems to be a lot of internally developed work that is unnecessarily replicated or lost just due to having no obligation or available resources to share or collaborate. Maybe there needs to be some system in place to have some sort of internal NDA or need to know check, but this seems like a good first step.

You're assuming government code even uses proper documentation or version control..

I'm assuming they don't. I guess to clarify, I'm desiring that the government not only mandates that they do use documentation and source control, but that they commit such code to a repository accessible by other departments. A minimal readme and "init" push may do the trick, but I'd want my local counsel to at least be able to pull the code for something like the government's favorite public website implementation and reuse it at lower cost than redoing it.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#82

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

There is more than one country in the world. Let's say country A is paying for some software and open source it, the rest of the world can get it. That may be fair if everyone is doing the same and contributing fairly (hard to assess that), but if countries A,B,C are the only ones contributing (paying) and everyone else just use, then it is not fair or sensible. More than that, there is no "public paid", just "tax pa…

Wealth is not a zero sum game.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#83

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

1. https://www.healthcare.gov/developers/ 2, 3, and 4 are made by private companies. Not government. 5. Probably a good idea.

> 2, 3, and 4 are made by private companies. Not government.

But government pays them to develop the code. For many such companies government is the only customer (whom else are you going to sell the traffic light software to?).

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#84

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

There is more than one country in the world. Let's say country A is paying for some software and open source it, the rest of the world can get it. That may be fair if everyone is doing the same and contributing fairly (hard to assess that), but if countries A,B,C are the only ones contributing (paying) and everyone else just use, then it is not fair or sensible. More than that, there is no "public paid", just "tax pa…

> That may be fair if everyone is doing the same and contributing fairly (hard to assess that), but if countries A,B,C are the only ones contributing (paying) and everyone else just use, then it is not fair or sensible.

Isn't this the purpose of the GPL? "Sure, you can use our code, but any additions need to be reusable as well, so everyone is contributing fairly."

Unless, of course, countries B,C,D don't change anything, in which case, no actual loss to country A.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#85
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. https://www.healthcare.gov/developers/ 2, 3, and 4 are made by private companies. Not government. 5. Probably a good idea.

> 5. Probably a good idea. You probably wouldn't want their fraud detection/audit selection software published. No matter how good it is releasing it gives people a chance to better avoid detection.

I guess that's true.

I'm mostly thinking of it from a law-abiding citizen perspective. Maybe make some basic tests available to more easily show that I'm not making the stupid mistakes (an extra "0" somewhere or missing a digit somewhere else).

Also, anything that would more easily interface with the IRS's online submission system would be great.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#86
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. https://www.healthcare.gov/developers/ 2, 3, and 4 are made by private companies. Not government. 5. Probably a good idea.

> 2, 3, and 4 are made by private companies. Not government. But government pays them to develop the code. For many such companies government is the only customer (whom else are you going to sell the traffic light software to?).

Another government.

The traffic lights in Chicago are likely made by a different company than the traffic lights in New York City (I dunno for sure... but it'd be a separate arrangement nonetheless). Those are two grossly different customers.

USA has a federal society: that means we have mini-governments across the country with their own laws and regulations. In an extreme case, an Home-owners association can own traffic lights and operate roads. (My own HOA for example owns the traffic lights in my area, and hires cops from the county to patrol our roads. They're county-cops contracted out to the Homeowner's Association for security in the neighborhood)

---------

Same thing with voting booths, and other services. They're made by private companies in the USA, to serve the many different local governments that exist.

And local governments interact with local neighborhoods / homeowners associations, depending on local regulations of course.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more than one country in the world. Let's say country A is paying for some software and open source it, the rest of the world can get it. That may be fair if everyone is doing the same and contributing fairly (hard to assess that), but if countries A,B,C are the only ones contributing (paying) and everyone else just use, then it is not fair or sensible. More than that, there is no "public paid", just "tax pa…

> That may be fair if everyone is doing the same and contributing fairly (hard to assess that), but if countries A,B,C are the only ones contributing (paying) and everyone else just use, then it is not fair or sensible. Isn't this the purpose of the GPL? "Sure, you can use our code, but any additions need to be reusable as well, so everyone is contributing fairly." Unless, of course, countries B,C,D don't change anyt…

Hard to sue someone in another country.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#88
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having government acquired code be open source licensed from the vendor to the government doesn't even mean the government publicly discloses the code. It does mean the government is free to do so , or to hire another vendor to work on it without restriction.

Wouldn't FOIA mandate that it's released if it's not confidential? I'm seriously asking; I'm not an expert in these things.

> Wouldn't FOIA mandate that it's released?

FOIA has a number of things exceptions, material subject to it's exceptions is not required to be released, including:

---[quote]---

Exemption 1: Information that is classified to protect national security.

Exemption 2: Information related solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an agency.

Exemption 3: Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another federal law.

Exemption 4: Trade secrets or commercial or financial information that is confidential or privileged.

Exemption 5: Privileged communications within or between agencies, including those protected by the:

1. Deliberative Process Privilege (provided the records were created less than 25 years before the date on which they were requested)

2. Attorney-Work Product Privilege

3. Attorney-Client Privilege

Exemption 6: Information that, if disclosed, would invade another individual's personal privacy.

Exemption 7: Information compiled for law enforcement purposes that:

7(A). Could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings

7(B). Would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication

7(C). Could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy

7(D). Could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source

7(E). Would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or would disclose guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions if such disclosure could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of the law

7(F). Could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual

Exemption 8: Information that concerns the supervision of financial institutions.

Exemption 9: Geological information on wells.

---[quote from: https://www.foia.gov/faq.html ]---

The sensitive things at issue probably fall into the existing exemptions (a lot in #3), otherwise business rules could be disclosed under FOIA now, even if the code wasn't the government’s to disclose.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#89
post #19
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a poor application of tragedy of the commons. Also, in your example, I don't know how other cities' use would impede the funding city's use.

I worked on image analysis software in a wetlab for a particular type of microscopy. They are in just this position: the lab builds and sells software. The fees are low -- on the order of $10-$15k/license. They use the proceeds entirely to fund ongoing development of the software. And the simple fact is, without these license sales, they don't have the resources to fund development. The software is open source in the…

This is the same bullshit excuse people use to justify subscription licensing.

If they can't get the interested labs to contribute towards the development without the coercion of a commercial license then it sounds like it's either done, or the development roadmap is misaligned with the users' goals. In either case, stopping the abusive current practices would be an immediate improvement for everyone involved.

Re: If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Should Be Open Source

#90

Most posts on this thread are focusing on exceptional cases where there are obvious reasons not to open the source, such as defense, but huge amounts of publicly-funded code is locked up for no reason whatsoever. Let's discuss some use cases that make more sense: 1. healthcare.gov 2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras. 3. Voting machines. 4. Electrical grid. 5. IRS.

>2. Stoplights/traffic control cameras.

If you think this should be open source, do you then carry that logic to demand that all government vehicles run on open source software as well?

In my local community, the government does not own the traffic control cameras. They contract out agreements to maintain cameras at intersections that meet constraints.

I'm not necessarily against the idea of the government being restricted to using 100% open source hardware, but that's super radically different than "software the government owns should be open source".

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