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China Cracks Down on Churches

nytimes.com

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Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#81

Post by saagarjha »

wintom wrote: post #60
dgut wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary. I think our leaders should spend more time together. Maybe they should even vacation together. The US severed economic ties with Cuba in the 60s and look what happened (only recently celebrating Christmas became legal, and property that belonged to the church was returned). There are countless examples like that.

What exactly happened after the U.S. severed ties with Cuba? You make it sound like we lost something. They are still stuck in the 1960s, their economy is absolute garbage and the people are dirt poor, they lost multiple generations of opportunity. Have you been to Cuba? It’s like going back in time 70 years.. the country itself is beautiful if they had taken a different path they could be incredibly propsorous. A sm…

Perhaps the point was that if we had remained involved in Cuba, they wouldn’t be stuck in the 1960s?

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#82

Post by somethingle234 »

tibu wrote: post #67
somethingle234 wrote: post #23

I'm not supporting China here, but the ideology "accepting all faith" is strange and, maybe, dangerous. Bible contains some cruel stories. But Christianity has a leader, which is Pope, who has ties with modern world and updates/rejects the stories from Bible, so it works decently enough with modern world. Other religions don't have that kinds of checks and balances. some religions just interpret whatever ancient book…

Pope is only leading the roman catholic church. There are several Christian churches which do not have such centralized leadership.

Yes, and many several Christian churches have strange beliefs and practices. Scientology is a prime example.

And I apologize about the inaccuracy on the Pope leading all Christianity.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#83

Post by chapium »

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #61
somethingle234 wrote: post #23

I'm not supporting China here, but the ideology "accepting all faith" is strange and, maybe, dangerous. Bible contains some cruel stories. But Christianity has a leader, which is Pope, who has ties with modern world and updates/rejects the stories from Bible, so it works decently enough with modern world. Other religions don't have that kinds of checks and balances. some religions just interpret whatever ancient book…

People need to be open to the idea that they're wrong, even atheists. Monocultures where other people are forced to accept your values create stagnation and dangers long term. There have been plenty of evil committed in the name of enforcing that which is righteous: communism, religions of all types, even democracy. It's better to let people have the freedom to make their own choices. You can choose to learn from the…

This paints atheism as its own philosophy, but that would be inaccurate. To reject one philosophy does not automatically default you to a separate one.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#84

Post by ams6110 »

somethingle234 wrote: post #23

I'm not supporting China here, but the ideology "accepting all faith" is strange and, maybe, dangerous. Bible contains some cruel stories. But Christianity has a leader, which is Pope, who has ties with modern world and updates/rejects the stories from Bible, so it works decently enough with modern world. Other religions don't have that kinds of checks and balances. some religions just interpret whatever ancient book…

The Pope leads the Roman Catholic branch of Christianity. I don't think the Protestant denominations pay a lot of attention to what he says.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#85

Post by krapp »

somethingle234 wrote: post #79
KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to be open to the idea that they're wrong, even atheists. Monocultures where other people are forced to accept your values create stagnation and dangers long term. There have been plenty of evil committed in the name of enforcing that which is righteous: communism, religions of all types, even democracy. It's better to let people have the freedom to make their own choices. You can choose to learn from the…

I can understand your point. My point is that "accepting all faiths" has gone too far. > It's better to let people have the freedom to make their own choices. But accepting the people's choices without examining the content is strange. Don't you think? Would you accept anything that you don't understand? I understand there must be some balance. And we might be biased to accepting a faith. But, at least, we should exe…

What do you mean by "accepting" a faith? Accepting its tenets as true, or accepting the presence of its adherents?

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#86

Post by saagarjha »

tivert wrote: post #73
jxi wrote: post #3

How does news like this even get out of the country with the information controls in place?

> How does news like this even get out of the country with the information controls in place? China isn't North Korea. There's a lot of travel of both Westerners and Chinese into and out of China, and free-ish communication between them. Within China, you can talk about many things privately without having to worry about the police showing up. The government's big red lines are public advocacy and especially politica…

News comes out of countries like North Korea as well, since it is incredibly hard to suppress the spread of information, even despite the numerous policies the government has put into place aimed at curbing propagation.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#87

Post by kadendogthing »

lgleason wrote: post #4

This is why we need to sever economic ties with China. The more we support this the worse this type of thing will intensify, including beyond China's borders....and it won't stop at just Christianity, they have targeted Islam and, Buddhists etc. as well.

Power, and if I may diplomacy, vacuums never work in the favor of the people who created it in the first place.

The U.S. (and largely other Western) nations enjoy a hefty set of soft power and good economic relations with the majority of countries on this planet precisely because we have actively engaged with them. If you're worried about things getting worse or intensifying, then severing ties with these countries (and China specifically) is a good way to make those worries a very brutal reality.

And if that's not enough the blunt reality is that our economies are too intertwined at this point. We can only play the situation as it is, not back out of it completely unless we mean to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#89

Post by jeswin »

I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a wonderful time of the year for most of the world.

However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often. If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" rather than against the "mislead", the ethicality of such action is quite defensible.

Re: China Cracks Down on Churches

#90

Post by pm90 »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #77
wintom wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly happened after the U.S. severed ties with Cuba? You make it sound like we lost something. They are still stuck in the 1960s, their economy is absolute garbage and the people are dirt poor, they lost multiple generations of opportunity. Have you been to Cuba? It’s like going back in time 70 years.. the country itself is beautiful if they had taken a different path they could be incredibly propsorous. A sm…

They make it sound like they lost something. As in, if they wouldn't have been isolated it might have turned out better for the average Cuban.

It’s not certain that it would. But participation in the global economy is one way to get a country hooked on the economic crack that is the modern financial system. Once they’re hooked, economic sanctions (sometimes just the threat of them) are much more effective in achieving desired behavior.
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