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Rome in Ruins

nytimes.com

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Re: Rome in Ruins

#81

Post by agumonkey »

qubex wrote: post #80
agumonkey wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be in a good position to judge or at least sense how much the EU is to blame in countries demise (be it Italy, Greece, Spain, or even France[1]). [1] here too there's a very easy reflex to say Europe caused our problems, even though it's clear people forget other causes to issues.

If the EU is at fault then it’s all our collective faults, as Europeans, for having failed to make a success of this extraordinary period of peace and prosperity the European Union has fostered for us. The economic problems are less a fault of the EU and more (in my opinion at least) the result of having slowed the construction of a truly federal super-state. Had that been accomplished earlier, we wouldn’t be in this…

I worry about the feasibility of such a large federal body. One that doesn't fail (even partially). It would require a lot of learning from citizen and I don't think they're ready. Usually what unite people of that scale is a clearer polarization point (war..).

This crysis might lead to something quite disruptive. Energy, political technology (information)..

Re: Rome in Ruins

#82

Post by mlevental »

aristophenes wrote: post #39
pram wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I was in NYC for the first time this year and I was impressed by the filth and general dilapidation. The subways are exceptionally dirty, and the stations/trains along the A line seemed to be in advanced decay. It’s nowhere as bad as Chicago though ;P

It’s not that they don’t pay people to clean up. I used to get on the A at the very first stop. The train would be parked until it was time to go, and there was a whole crew of cleaners. The cleaning went like this, the workers would start in each separate car, when the doors opened they’d walk in, then walk towards each other trailing their mops, sit down and start talking. That was the cleaning that the MTA was pay…

r/thatHappened why do people post stuff like this? completely unverifiable and highly exaggerated at best complete fabrication at worst

Re: Rome in Ruins

#83

Post by redisman »

i_am_nomad wrote: post #77
fiblye wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at least some Europeans seem to agree. What really shocked me was how often I've heard terrible things about China f…

I was in Paris over the summer; it wasn’t a “dump” by any means, though there was a layer of grime to everything that many cities have. Also the amount of smoking was shocking and to me, very unpleasant. On the other hand, Normandy and it’s various towns and villages were so heartbreakingly beautiful, quaint, and filled with joy, I could barely believe that such a place could exist on Earth.

Sounds really strange coming from Americans. Maybe they all lived in some over-priced suburbs? Any major US city is definitely as grimy as Paris

Re: Rome in Ruins

#84

Post by redisman »

danans wrote: post #24
sloanedavids wrote: post #15

This description of Rome is how I see San Francisco. Formerly such a beautiful city, now all I see is garbage. Recently my grandparents, who had never been outside of Germany before, visited me in San Francisco. As we left SFO by car and drove into the city, they eagerly took in the new sights. Everything they saw was new to them. After a long period of silence, they asked me, with a certain level of disbelief in the…

What they perhaps didn't see is that the US has a higher rate of personal car ownership. People don't like to walk over garbage, but they don't mind driving over it to an extent. The areas with trash are the ones where people of means drive and the walkers are mostly poor, like freeway underpasses.

SF is one of the more walkable cities though. And its streets flow with urine and garbage

Re: Rome in Ruins

#85

Post by redisman »

woah wrote: post #62
inferiorhuman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New York, midtown specifically, doesn't even come close to how disgusting San Francisco is. Hell, San Francisco's mayor — London Breed, told off the last tourist who complained to her about how much litter there is in San Francisco.

It would not be politically tenable for her to do otherwise

First of all how dare you point out problems

Re: Rome in Ruins

#86

Post by redisman »

yawaworhtttt wrote: post #63

Pretty much all large cities are dirty. People like to stereotypically dunk on Paris but to be frank it's got nothing on London or New York. There's just something inherently filthy that comes with large concentrations of human beings. The only exception I've seen first hand is Tokyo. I guess if you're not used to large cities it must be shocking. "There was a certain something about the air in [Ankh-Morpork]. You go…

HN's beloved Bay Area (esp SF) is by far the dirtiest city I've been to and I've been to a lot of cities.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#87

Post by inferiorhuman »

woah wrote: post #62
inferiorhuman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New York, midtown specifically, doesn't even come close to how disgusting San Francisco is. Hell, San Francisco's mayor — London Breed, told off the last tourist who complained to her about how much litter there is in San Francisco.

It would not be politically tenable for her to do otherwise

> It would not be politically tenable for her to do otherwise

Sure it would. Both as a supervisor when this happened, and now that she's mayor. Telling tourists to fuck off only ends poorly for a town like SF that depends so heavily on tourist money.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#88

Post by inferiorhuman »

fiblye wrote: post #37
lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at least some Europeans seem to agree. What really shocked me was how often I've heard terrible things about China f…

> I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at least some Europeans seem to agree.

I visited Paris last year and stayed in Montmartre. It was hardly a sterile place (like Singapore tries to be), but then again Paris has always been grungy — where do you think modern perfume came from?

What I didn't see in Paris were the tent cities like back in San Francisco. I didn't see feces all over the escalator and stairs at the metro stations like you see in San Francisco. I didn't see any hypodermic needles in the seat backs like you do on BART either.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#89

Post by newnewpdro »

sloanedavids wrote: post #15

This description of Rome is how I see San Francisco. Formerly such a beautiful city, now all I see is garbage. Recently my grandparents, who had never been outside of Germany before, visited me in San Francisco. As we left SFO by car and drove into the city, they eagerly took in the new sights. Everything they saw was new to them. After a long period of silence, they asked me, with a certain level of disbelief in the…

California has always shocked me with the amount of trash I encounter on the highways. It's completely different from where I grew up in the midwest, not all of America is like that.

It's part of why I stopped riding motorcycles. There was far too often substantial hazardous objects like building materials or furniture littering the streets. I presume it was all falling from improperly loaded vehicles, perhaps people underestimating the effects of hills.

I've observed a lot more negligence and incompetence in general with Californians. There's a combination of extreme carelessness and lack of ownership for one's (in)actions, I'm not sure how to describe it, but it's very apparent after living here for over a decade. Everything is someone else's problem, maybe it's just the ubiquitous self-centeredness Californians are known for.

In any case, it doesn't make for a population that cooperates on keeping the place clean. The state would have to spend far more than other states to clean up after its residents enough to be kept comparably tidy. These people simply can't be bothered about anything other than themselves.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#90

Post by primitur »

The physical conditions of the city are a manifestation of the destitution of its people. I've lived in many cities around the world that were utterly poor - yet, the people kept the streets clean. Things were orderly and maintained.

I firmly believe its a matter of the principles of the society. In a progressive, wealthy nation such as exist in Europe, recycling is a thing. People don't want to live in trash - they use it for energy, or recycle it as much as possible. Those who sort trash, promote a cleaner eco-system .. those who eschew the waste anyway, as 'responsible consumers', also help a great deal. These are cultural phenomenon you don't find widely promoted in various civic contingencies around the western world; corruption persists in environments which support its ill-gained prosperity.

In Europe, at least, we can find as many good as bad examples of this. I think its clear, the same cannot be said of other of the western nations ..

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