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Rome in Ruins

nytimes.com

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Re: Rome in Ruins

#71

Post by aries1980 »

lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

> UK is like Denmark, not perfect but you don't get that sense of failed state that you get crossing into Italy.

You and I have a different experience on potholes and trash in London.

- Trash are everywhere in inner London, because the regulations against IRA bin bombings are still in effect. This is a hotbed for rats.

- Potholes are that dangerous I've seen couple of accidents just because the cyclist had to do unexpected move or drive through-then fell.

- Many of the roads are although two-way, but actually no two vehicles can fit in the lane (no surface marking to separate the two lanes). Quite dangerous. On top of this, many two-way roads are narrowed to provide shorter crossing for pedestrians. Check the front-left wheels of the cars and you will see what this mean.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#72

Post by lordnacho »

aries1980 wrote: post #71
lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

> UK is like Denmark, not perfect but you don't get that sense of failed state that you get crossing into Italy. You and I have a different experience on potholes and trash in London. - Trash are everywhere in inner London, because the regulations against IRA bin bombings are still in effect. This is a hotbed for rats. - Potholes are that dangerous I've seen couple of accidents just because the cyclist had to do unex…

Well that's what I would call

> not perfect

They have potholes and narrow lanes, but I've seen potholes you could sleep in some places outside the UK.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#73

Post by qubex »

agumonkey wrote: post #60
qubex wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m Italian and I live here in the northern parts of Italy that directly abut Switzerland. We’re not happy-go-lucky (or at the very least we aren’t anymore, haven’t been since the end of the nineties). We’re mostly exhausted and desperate about the apparently endless slide into destitution that our former political class failed to prevent (by failing to foresee the downsides of ‘globalisation’ for a cheap manufacturi…

Then I'm sorry to hear that. This partly explains the political context in italy, hard struggles and anger => further right. Do you think there's a way to resolve this ?

It’s often described as a shift to the ‘right’ but it isn’t really. It’s a problem of terminology: there’s a definite element of euroscepticism (more on that later) which is misconstrued as ‘nationalism’ (and hence right-wing) but I’d prefer the term ‘sovreignist’. This has become the backdrop of the new political discourse, and it arises from the political class’ tendency to blame external forces “beyond their control” for the sad state of affairs. In this particular instance, as elsewhere, the supra-national EU has been called in to shoulder the blame. The new political landscape is one of new or reinvented political parties taking on the mantles of yesteryear’s left/right and decking it out in the latter-day sovreignist guise. The population, humbled and distraught, take solace in being told that all harm came from outside and buy into this narrative by voting for the new parties.

I’m a mathematician and macroeconomist by training and the fourth generation of family business-owners. It’s difficult to see a happy end to the current predicament. The Euro currency’s stipulations are now seen as strictures imposed upon European peoples by intransigent Germans. Native spending power is contracting and only exports are growing. Deficit spending gave us an unmanageable debt-load and this basically excludes deficit spending to reboot the economy. The much-maligned Euro is the only thing that keeps the interest rates on this debt marginally manageable. Devaluation of the currency, the go-to choice of the 1960s-to-1990s is no longer available.

It really is a pickle. If anything I’m amazed that basic services such as universal healthcare and education have been largely untouched. Some of the welfare state has been under fire but mostly the effects have been cosmetic. For now, at least.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#74

Post by armitron »

tatoalo wrote: post #17
armitron wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that Italy is fast on the way to becoming - if not already there - a mafia state. Reading Roberto Saviano's Gomorra opened my eyes as to how machine-like in its efficiency and hydra-like in its resiliency organized crime in Italy is with numerous sectors of the Italian state under the direct control of the mafia [1]. Combined with the economic outlook, this doesn't bode well for the future. [1] https:/…

Thinking of understanding the Italian situation from outside Italy and from reading Saviano is, in my opinion, complete BS. I like to form a personal opinion with my own mind reading real newspapers and getting through different prospectives and then, again, form my own. I wouldn’t take Saviano’s words as pure gold, I don’t like someone who gained and still gains from “writing” those kind of things.

I don't see how I can't understand the Italian situation if I'm not living in Italy. The link I posted in my previous comment was from a "real newspaper". There are hundreds of links like that, all from "real newspapers" documenting the damage that the Camorra/Ndrangheta/Sicilian Mafia has done and how they're even expanding and threatening European mainland. I stopped buying Italian olive oil because odds are it's been tampered with by the clans. Even the Italians I know in Northern Europe prefer buying Greek and Spanish oil!

You may not like Saviano but a lot of what he has written and predicted in his book has been validated. The fact that he unmasked Camorra at grave risks to his own life makes it hard for me to see him as "gaining" or exploitative. He lives his life in hotel rooms or police barracks under constant guard [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/-sp-roberto-sa...

Re: Rome in Ruins

#75

Post by agumonkey »

qubex wrote: post #73
agumonkey wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I'm sorry to hear that. This partly explains the political context in italy, hard struggles and anger => further right. Do you think there's a way to resolve this ?

It’s often described as a shift to the ‘right’ but it isn’t really. It’s a problem of terminology: there’s a definite element of euroscepticism (more on that later) which is misconstrued as ‘nationalism’ (and hence right-wing) but I’d prefer the term ‘sovreignist’. This has become the backdrop of the new political discourse, and it arises from the political class’ tendency to blame external forces “beyond their contr…

You seem to be in a good position to judge or at least sense how much the EU is to blame in countries demise (be it Italy, Greece, Spain, or even France[1]).

[1] here too there's a very easy reflex to say Europe caused our problems, even though it's clear people forget other causes to issues.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#76

Post by armitron »

icebraining wrote: post #57
Shivetya wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the issue with hiring as you qualified it is that many would find it insulting to the work that needs to be done. the wage they would want would be completely out of proportion to the skill level required yet they would rather not work than suffer offense. We have created in the Western world a sense of entitlement such that there are jobs only those who immigrate will take. Not because because the work is hard but b…

I don't see how this rant explains the differences seen between Italy and Switzerland, both of which are in the Western world, last time I checked.

Switzerland has 76000 illegal immigrants. The quality (education, earning potential, skills) of legal immigrants to Switzerland is very high.

Italy has more than - half a million - illegal immigrants. [1] Italy has five million+ legal immigrants. [1]

The quality of illegal and legal immigrants to Italy is very low. I hope that better explains the differences between Italy and Switzerland.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Italy

Re: Rome in Ruins

#77

Post by i_am_nomad »

fiblye wrote: post #37
lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

I've heard a lot from other Americans about thinking France was a dump when they visited, and I really thought they were exaggerating. When I visited, I was actually pretty surprised to find it just how they described it. I wasn't sure if it was just that it was different, but I guess it's nice knowing at least some Europeans seem to agree. What really shocked me was how often I've heard terrible things about China f…

I was in Paris over the summer; it wasn’t a “dump” by any means, though there was a layer of grime to everything that many cities have. Also the amount of smoking was shocking and to me, very unpleasant.

On the other hand, Normandy and it’s various towns and villages were so heartbreakingly beautiful, quaint, and filled with joy, I could barely believe that such a place could exist on Earth.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#78

Post by marcosdumay »

Shivetya wrote: post #47
lordnacho wrote: post #36

I've driven into Italy from Switzerland on a few occasions. It's like one of those MMOs where you know you're in a new zone immediately. Even though you're driving you can tell exactly where the border is, not just where the official building for the import/export inspectors are, but the exact place where the Swiss asphalt ends and the Italian begins. Switzerland: Asphalt is perfect. No potholes, it might be a Formul…

the issue with hiring as you qualified it is that many would find it insulting to the work that needs to be done. the wage they would want would be completely out of proportion to the skill level required yet they would rather not work than suffer offense. We have created in the Western world a sense of entitlement such that there are jobs only those who immigrate will take. Not because because the work is hard but b…

Do you know of actual people or governments with unfilled vacancies for low paid work in high unemployment areas?

What you describe is too easy an image to create on one's head. It's easy to convince people this is happening, as fictional jobs where the employer doesn't really intent to hire anyone is are very cheap to create. But it is hard for people to risk their families living just because they think some job is beneath them.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#79

Post by bobthepanda »

pram wrote: post #9
phyller wrote: post #6

This is how I see New York City. Living there I was so used to it, then I went to San Diego for a wedding, couldn't believe my eyes when I saw people walking around outside barefoot. Because everything was clean, why not? Everyone else wore sandals, I was the only one wearing shoes. I came back to NYC early Monday morning, rode the subway from JFK and had to walk through Times Square to get where I was going. Times S…

Yeah I was in NYC for the first time this year and I was impressed by the filth and general dilapidation. The subways are exceptionally dirty, and the stations/trains along the A line seemed to be in advanced decay. It’s nowhere as bad as Chicago though ;P

For a very long time (‘30s-‘80s) the subway had almost no funding go to maintenance. It got to the point where parts of elevated structure were falling onto the streets and people below.

It’s gotten much better since then, but the MTA barely gets funding for current maintenance, let alone funding to clear the backlog. Most recent fare increases have been to service debt issued to clear said backlog.

Re: Rome in Ruins

#80

Post by qubex »

agumonkey wrote: post #75
qubex wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s often described as a shift to the ‘right’ but it isn’t really. It’s a problem of terminology: there’s a definite element of euroscepticism (more on that later) which is misconstrued as ‘nationalism’ (and hence right-wing) but I’d prefer the term ‘sovreignist’. This has become the backdrop of the new political discourse, and it arises from the political class’ tendency to blame external forces “beyond their contr…

You seem to be in a good position to judge or at least sense how much the EU is to blame in countries demise (be it Italy, Greece, Spain, or even France[1]). [1] here too there's a very easy reflex to say Europe caused our problems, even though it's clear people forget other causes to issues.

If the EU is at fault then it’s all our collective faults, as Europeans, for having failed to make a success of this extraordinary period of peace and prosperity the European Union has fostered for us. The economic problems are less a fault of the EU and more (in my opinion at least) the result of having slowed the construction of a truly federal super-state. Had that been accomplished earlier, we wouldn’t be in this quagmire we find ourselves in.
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