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NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

fox5ny.com

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Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#81

Post by Fomite »

andy_wrote wrote: post #74
avip wrote: post #16

In 96', when Apatosaurus still roamed the earth and "Atari" was a thing, Israel granted Intel 600MM$ to build FAB18 in the desert. Over a decade later, an official government report concluded that the country lost some 400MM$ on the move. Bottom line, big-corps can extort states or cities and bid for ridiculous tax incentives that never pay off. I feel sorry for the residents of NY and the bad deal imposed on them.

I don't know anything about the Israel-Intel deal and have not decided personally how I feel about HQ2 in NYC. But I upvoted your comment because it emphasizes looking at other historical deals, and not just the projections and analysis on the current deal, and would love to read more of that in this discussion. This is a very large project over long horizons (10yrs) and it's hard to imagine being anything but extrem…

Stadiums and convention centers are pretty classic examples.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#82

Post by jondubois »

metildaa wrote: post #5

Perhaps the citizens should object, I hear one of their congress critters is shitposting on twitter to that end. If the locals don't want their lives upended by gentrification, Berlin has shown a good example of how to block uninvited expansion by tech giants: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45971538

To summarize the article: The government is using taxpayer money to pay a corporation to help enslave taxpayers and that's a good thing apparently.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#83

Post by InclinedPlane »

rb808 wrote: post #7

This is such a great deal for NYC As the article says, they give up $1.5B over 10 years, but then get "Projected incremental tax revenue of more than $10 billion over 20 years." I dont know where that comes from but the payroll and property taxes paid by 25k employees dwarves the incentives. The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast. That is invaluable. EDIT: I wonder if NYC…

This implies there is zero cost to NYC from the operation and no opportunity cost from giving up $1.5 billion. It also implies that no tax revenues would have come from the people and businesses that Amazon will inevitably force out.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#84

Post by [deleted] »

metildaa wrote: post #5

Perhaps the citizens should object, I hear one of their congress critters is shitposting on twitter to that end. If the locals don't want their lives upended by gentrification, Berlin has shown a good example of how to block uninvited expansion by tech giants: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45971538

[deleted]

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#85

Post by CPLX »

rb808 wrote: post #7

This is such a great deal for NYC As the article says, they give up $1.5B over 10 years, but then get "Projected incremental tax revenue of more than $10 billion over 20 years." I dont know where that comes from but the payroll and property taxes paid by 25k employees dwarves the incentives. The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast. That is invaluable. EDIT: I wonder if NYC…

I beg to differ.

New York City doesn't have a problem attracting jobs. Like not even a little bit. The idea that this is actually incremental revenue for the city is extremely debatable.

New York City is a really big place. Midtown is the largest central business district in the country, and Lower Manhattan is the third largest, after Chicago. There are 1,700,000 jobs in Manhattan alone and 3,900,000 in New York City. We're supposed to all bow down before a sixth of a percent change, spread out over 5-10 years? Really?

There are single buildings in New York City that employ as many as 25,000 people. Back when the twin towers were around they contained 55,000 employees between them.

JP Morgan Chase is putting about 15,000 employees in their new HQ building, without a breathless 13 months of coverage. This shit happens all the time. You could pick any number of random single city blocks in Manhattan with way over 25,000 jobs.

Amazon needs New York way more than New York needs Amazon. It's the global center of media, fashion, advertising, finance, and many other categories of Amazon's business.

This giveaway is a goddamm travesty. How about instead, Cuomo gives me and any other startup founder who's been in Brooklyn or Queens for decades $48,000 for every job we've created, and we tell Amazon to go fuck themselves.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#86

Post by meddlepal »

rb808 wrote: post #69
marricks wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t NYC have a housing crisis already? I’m not sure they need a worse one coupled with the gentrifying forces of thousands of tech employees moving in. $1.5 billion in housing or just really anything to help people who already live there is what should happen.

NYC is expensive and there is a lack of affordable housing. Cheaper than SFO though as there are hundreds of new apartment buildings always being built. https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/html/nyc-active-major-... https://www.nynesting.com/new-developments

Yea NY's problem isn't like SF's or Bostons. NYC knows how to build and will build, it's just they need to build even more and faster.

Nothing stays forever in NYC which is kind of why it is such a great city.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#87

Post by avip »

School-Cotton wrote: post #50
avip wrote: post #16

In 96', when Apatosaurus still roamed the earth and "Atari" was a thing, Israel granted Intel 600MM$ to build FAB18 in the desert. Over a decade later, an official government report concluded that the country lost some 400MM$ on the move. Bottom line, big-corps can extort states or cities and bid for ridiculous tax incentives that never pay off. I feel sorry for the residents of NY and the bad deal imposed on them.

Trying to understand your position... do you think Israel, a democracy, shouldn't have been able to decide to make that deal? Who was Israel harming by making that decision? Is a deal made freely and with complete information between two parties always "extortion", if it turns out with the benefit of hindsight not to have turned out to be in the best interests of one of the parties?

I must be really bad at phrasing thoughts. Isreal was "harming" itself and its taxpayers (normal people like me), same way NY taxpayers would undoubtedly IMO be "harmed" (in the sense of their hard-won money being ill-invested). Is it extortion? I guess not literally, only in spirit. It is just bad investment with negative long-term ROI. NY could have supported thousands of SMBs instead, and that builds more resilient, diverse and sustainable economy long-term.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#88

Post by nemo44x »

It's not so much that it's a "bad deal" for NYC but rather that this practice needs to be better regulated if legally possible.

It's a policy that both the Libertarians on the right and the Social Democrats on the left can mainly agree on here and could work together to solve which is limiting corporate welfare that pits cities against each other.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#89

Post by Apocryphon »

vdnkh wrote: post #32

1) Incentives are not given up front. They are given proportional to the results Amazon has achieved. Amazon must make a report each year detailing their progress before any award is given. 2) The city-level incentives are available to any business. State-level incentives (I think 300m) are not. 3) Amazon has pledged to invest in the local community as part of the deal. There are plans for an elementary school and te…

What about the externalities and expenses pointed out in a prior thread [0], specifically the ones not helped by federal funds in this post [1]?

Will Amazon help to pay for the transit and housing required by their move? Because they're sure paying less than they would have if not for the incentives.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18443624

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18445241

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