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US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

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Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#81
post #48
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, we've had three terrorist attacks this week, and a lot of us are just kind of tired of the partisan sniping. Can we just kind of give it a rest for a little while? It really is a bad time right now.

The terror attacks are themselves partisan sniping with live ammunition. This will continue until the right realises that it's better to live in a peaceful country than win at all costs.

"If only my opponents surrendered, everything would be peaceful"

I think the far-left could equally do with some reflection. The far-right is not the only problem in today's politics.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#82

I think it's probably still a little too far outside most peoples' comfort zone, but I think the future of voting will be 100% electronic with the capability of being instantly recallable. The voting system will allow me to see exactly how my vote was tallied after the fact. From what I have read this is not desirable for the fact that people will more easily be able to sell their vote because they can prove to their…

No the primary problem isn't selling votes. The primary problem is fabricating votes or people trying to destabilize an election by claiming they voted for someone else. If even 100 people come out and said their votes were changed what do we do? Re-run the election?

Just use paper ballots. This isn't that hard.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#83
post #77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, require ID; but it must be freely available and easily accessible, and states which end up with different ID takeup rates for different races should be prosecuted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated? Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code…

The difference is that every country with any sense actually keeps track of its citizens. Consistently. Because when you say it out loud, it sounds ridiculous to be a government with no idea who your people actually are.

For half a century social security cards had "not for identification" written on them because they are really bad for ID. Didn't stop everyone from using them as ID because there was no other option. The Social Security administration was the only government agency actually tasked with tracking citizens for their entire lives so they did that. Poorly.

If you want to understand why requiring any state ID is voter disenfranchisement in the US just consider what it takes to get a state ID as a fresh adult. Two recognized proofs of ID. Basically birth certificate, student ID, social security card, or other state ID. If you don't get a student ID, didn't go to high school, or your ID from there simply expired it can't count. So its basically requiring birth certificate and social security card.

Now thats where you might not recognize how weird the US is. Nobody is required to have those. Hospitals do the paperwork to get them issued when you are born there but for every child not born under the supervision of a doctor (way too many to this day in the US) your parents do need to actually apply for those. Of course that only matters if you are filing taxes to begin with. Which is disproportionately whites. A ridiculous number of people exist outside the tax system because... the government doesn't know who its citizens are. It doesn't keep track of anyone in a central way. If you IRS never started getting pay stubs from your employers they might not even know you exist.

This is in addition to having the means to get to a DMV, pay the fee to get an ID card (I think it was $25 when I got one to fly to Texas when I was 17?) and be able to go there during some obscenely limited hours of operation (some of the worst offenders I've seen are only open 10-2 on three weekdays). Then you also need a permanent address to get it shipped to.

For way too many people they are missing something in that chain, and if you find yourself without two qualified forms of ID getting a birth certificate or social security card where you never had one before can take months at least.

What might sound really bizarre to you is that there is nothing to really "catch" kids that fell through the system. School enrollment is completely decoupled from all the previously mentioned systems of tracking people - you don't need any major documents to enroll your kid in a public school, often not even proof of legitimate residency in the country. Schools want those but the laws are state specific and often simply "try to figure out who they are or just drop them in class somewhere I guess". So you can easily graduate high school with no government institution knowing you exist whatsoever, go to get a job, and find out your employer won't hire you without this backlog of paperwork nobody made sure you had.

This whole mess, as others say, disproportionately affects minorities and the poor. They are less likely to have parents who can afford hospitalization for the birth so they don't get the paperwork done for them. They don't pay taxes or work under the table and thus don't itemize their children or apply to get their documents to get tax rebates. They get them enrolled in school without having any documentation of their own. They go their entire childhood using health clinics and whatever their mom thinks is best to get through because they don't have health insurance and never show up in that system. Nobody in their family can afford a car so getting into the drivers registry isn't even on the radar for any of them.

There are millions of legitimate born US citizens to American parents without a paper trail because they live in poverty. Its the 1 in 4 food insecure kids growing up today. Their towns and cities are practically blighted with mistreatment by every institution that has any influence on their success. I live in central PA and see this all the time - neighborhoods can be 10 miles apart where on one side they don't have regularly working electricity and water while on the other end you have mcmansions and three newly built shopping centers composed of Whole Foods and Old Navy. One of those groups is going to have their learners permit at 16 and be preregistered to vote without even knowing it, the other would have to spend years of time fighting to form the paper trail to register to vote.

And its a legitimate fight. My parents lost my social security card at some point in my early childhood and it took 2 years and 3 visits to the DMV to get a replacement. Good thing that happened when I was 12 and not 18 or I would have missed upwards of two elections like that. And I was on the lucky side of the ID disparity - born in a hospital, records of doctors all the way through, proper paper trail in the public school system, and it still takes several hours of your life to get through the beuracracy to have a drivers license or state ID by the time you are eligible to vote. Way too many people don't have the paperwork or the time to try to use it as a barrier to voting.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#84

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

I dont trust mail in ballots because of the potemtial for spousal intimidation and fraud.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#85
post #75
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it should also be a requirement to show a state or federal ID before you can cast your vote. I'm always floored when people try to defend voting without requiring any kind of identity verification. In Puerto Rico you're required to register ahead of time for a voter ID and you must present it in order to vote. If Puerto Rico, which is drastically poorer than all 50 states, can pull this off without it being…

The same proponents of stronger voter ID laws are also the same people who are incomprehensibly paranoid about the notion of a national ID system.

Is that really so weird? All elections are essentially state elections. Even the presidency is really a state level election due to the way the electoral college works. There is no nationwide election so why would there need to be a nationwide ID system for voting?

I'm in favor of requiring a photo id to vote but am well aware of the problems some have in obtaining such an id. That's the problem that needs to be corrected. It does need to be corrected first and we shouldn't just shrug our shoulders and go back to things the way they've been. Everyone should have easy access to a state endorsed identification card. It's an essential function of government and interaction with citizens. As such it should be funded by general taxation rather than a user fee.

A state issued identification card is used for so much more than just authorization for driving a vehicle. Why is it in the hands of the DMV/DDS in most if not every state? Even the non-driver identification cards issued to those who don't drive are usually still issued by DMV/DDS. It's an odd system that wouldn't be designed as it is now if we were designing from scratch but we're use to it because that's how it evolved over time.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#86

I think it's probably still a little too far outside most peoples' comfort zone, but I think the future of voting will be 100% electronic with the capability of being instantly recallable. The voting system will allow me to see exactly how my vote was tallied after the fact. From what I have read this is not desirable for the fact that people will more easily be able to sell their vote because they can prove to their…

One of the cornerstones of US voting is secrecy. The ability to cast your vote without the public knowing who you voted for contributes to the integrity of the entire election. Today you can already be assured your vote was counted - in California you can go to voterstatus.sos.ca.gov and review your previous election participation and see that it was recorded.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#87
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The decentralization of the United States is, in my opinion, a feature, not a bug. The upside inherent in fifty parallel and bespoke experiments in government is worth the extra complexity and cost. Ideas are tried out, and can bubble outward and upward if they work. Bad ideas directly impact only ~2% of the country. Furthermore, having state and local control over elections has a direct impact on legitimacy. I don't…

The upside inherent in fifty parallel and bespoke experiments in government is worth the extra complexity and cost. Ideas are tried out, and can bubble outward and upward if they work. Bad ideas directly impact only ~2% of the country. Don't agree. Just look at the history of Alec to see how local and regional governments are easily captured by self-serving actors. These are nice sentiments but the underlying assumpt…

Gay marriage rights and now weed legalization are two recent examples of policy that I don’t think would have been possible in America (at least for a long time) without decentralized government. People got used to the idea in some more progressive states and it’s bubbling outward.

Many states experiment with election law as well. California with top two primaries. It’s yet to be seen how that will play out, but we likely wouldn’t try on a national stage.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#88
post #77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, require ID; but it must be freely available and easily accessible, and states which end up with different ID takeup rates for different races should be prosecuted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated? Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code…

When I was a teen I volunteered at a nursing home. It wasn't unusual for a resident to not have an un-expired ID card. Once they stop driving, they felt they had no reason to renew their drivers license. It really wasn't an issue since for most purposes an expired ID was fine.

It wasn't a problem for voting because the poll workers knew most of the nursing home residents socially. This was a small town and some of the poll workers even attended primary school over half a century ago with the nursing home residents. As our communities become looser and looser knit, this kind of informal identification system loses its integrity. Our identification card issuing system hasn't kept up with this change in society. Fix that problem and the rest fixes itself.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#89
post #77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, require ID; but it must be freely available and easily accessible, and states which end up with different ID takeup rates for different races should be prosecuted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated? Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code…

Whatever information the IRS has on me is far from accurate.

I have never been able to file my taxes electronically because I cannot pass their electronic verification process.

They have to verify birth date, which they think is something else other than my actual birth date.

I have spent hours and hours being shuffled around between different governmental offices, explaining my case, and it got to a point where you have to give up. Have you ever seen the movie Brazil? You might know what I'm talking about.

Imagine having to be reduced to calling around your city, trying to find the nearest fax machine because some governmental office will only take faxes so that you can continue your quest towards the distant sanity...

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#90
post #77
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, require ID; but it must be freely available and easily accessible, and states which end up with different ID takeup rates for different races should be prosecuted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated? Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code…

I had to take a day off work to get my drivers license, and I was just transferring one from out of state. The lines were around the building before it opened.

Now imagine doing that when you work an hourly service job instead of a salaried engineering job.

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