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If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

theguardian.com

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Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#81

Post by bryanlarsen »

Djvacto wrote: post #29

This article reads more like an ad for their farm, which granted as far as farms that produce meat from livestock goes, seems really nice. But their approach is not gonna work at scale, because you cannot have enough farms that operate this way to supply meat to a whole population. They also only compare their approach to what is basically the strip mining approach to crop growth. They don't look at things like crop…

There is no ecologically sound way of getting vegetable calories out of the Montana native grasslands. The best way of feeding people using that land would be raising Bison; cattle are an acceptable second choice.

But your basic point still stands. The Montana native grasslands can only support a few cattle per square mile, so it definitely does not work at scale.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#82

Post by mcv »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #81
Djvacto wrote: post #29

This article reads more like an ad for their farm, which granted as far as farms that produce meat from livestock goes, seems really nice. But their approach is not gonna work at scale, because you cannot have enough farms that operate this way to supply meat to a whole population. They also only compare their approach to what is basically the strip mining approach to crop growth. They don't look at things like crop…

There is no ecologically sound way of getting vegetable calories out of the Montana native grasslands. The best way of feeding people using that land would be raising Bison; cattle are an acceptable second choice. But your basic point still stands. The Montana native grasslands can only support a few cattle per square mile, so it definitely does not work at scale.

There re many different kinds of soil. I can totally understand that some soils are better used for this kind of sustainable grazing. Other soils are great for growing crops.

This should not be a veganism vs organic meat discussion, but an organic meat vs intensive meat production discussion. And a separate sustainable crops vs soil-depleting crop production discussion.

You can't feed everybody on just meat; you're going to need crops of various sorts. Feeding crops to animals for meat is incredibly wasteful, but having animals graze on land that's otherwise unusable, is a great idea. I hope this is the future of meat production. But it's not a replacement for sustainable crops.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#83

Post by mcv »

cageface wrote: post #26

More humane and sustainable forms of animal agriculture would certainly be a step in the right direction from the horrors of the concentrated feeding operations that supply most of the world's meat supply right now. But those techniques were developed for a reason. There's no way to meet the current and rapidly growing demand for meat without completely setting aside the welfare of the animals and the environment. Th…

Going full vegan may not be necessary, but we do need to drastically reduce our consumption of meat. I know a lot of people who eat meat twice per week, for example. That seems like something that could work for everybody.

And if we eat less meat, we can more easily afford to get the meat we do eat from these kind of organic pastures.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#84

Post by cageface »

jversd673 wrote: post #78
cageface wrote: post #26

More humane and sustainable forms of animal agriculture would certainly be a step in the right direction from the horrors of the concentrated feeding operations that supply most of the world's meat supply right now. But those techniques were developed for a reason. There's no way to meet the current and rapidly growing demand for meat without completely setting aside the welfare of the animals and the environment. Th…

> well-planned vegan diet Love the weasel wording Translation It means B12 (Yeast has poor bioavailability) Zinc Iron D2 Pills (No such thing as D3 on plant based foods) and a ton of Carbohydrates from grains potatoes legumes rice fruits etc and people still wonder why the majority of Vegans return back to meat.

Nonsense. The only supplement vegans require is B12, but most meat eaters are deficient too. Everything else is readily available from a sensible vegan diet. Complex carbs are perfectly healthy, despite the best efforts of meat industry propagandists to confuse the issue. Meanwhile the typical meat-heavy diet is deficient in a number of important nutrients, most notably fiber.

The American Dietetics Association's official position is that vegan diets are healthy for people at all stages of life but don't that that distract you from your favorite bro science blog.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#86

Post by Spellchamp »

vinni2 wrote: post #85

Isn’t most of soya and corn produced used for feeding cattle to produce meat anyway? Is there some comparison on amount of soya needed if everyone on earth goes vegan vs soya consumed by meat industry?

Yes but this article is about grazing livestock, not soya/corn fed livestock.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#87

Post by doodlebugging »

rajekas wrote: post #67

Not much that I can add to this conversation, but let me share a pet peeve: the phrase "save the world," which is used indiscriminately in so many contexts that's its devoid of meaning. Save the world for whom? The tacit answer seems to be: for humans. Most vegans, including me, are vegan because we find the exploitation of animals morally unjustifiable. Our world includes the nonhuman world. And by being vegan we ar…

It seems that vegans have no problem shifting their consumption of food to a part of the biota that they feel doesn’t have the capacity to understand what is happening to them or to feel or respond to the pain of the process of being harvested for our food.

I often wonder how the plant feels when the sharp cow hoof shears a leaf or stalk as it grazes. Does it mourn the loss of the immature seed heads that fall to the ground to be consumed by the waiting insect hordes or buried forever in the soil to be consumed by the soil microbes? A generation lost to a random grazer who was totally unappreciative of the effort that the plant expended sucking nutrients from soil and carefully metering out available water all the while competing with each of its anchored neighbors for vital sunlight.

As the horse grazes the pasture do the bunches of grass shout pain filled warnings to their neighbors as they are forcefully yanked from the ground by their roots and consumed whole to be digested and deposited some time later as a turd that will feed their fellow grasses? Oh the indignity of losing your closest kin to a ruminant who deposits their crushed, altered remains on your shimmering blades so that they can feed you and your surviving kinsmen. By their deaths do you so prosper.

Does the plant yearn for mobility so that it could exact some revenge upon the aggressors? Is kudzu the plant kingdom equivalent of a super-hero – taking land that humans value for farming and agriculture out of production? Do insects pass on to their plant hosts the bold tales of the lands currently under conquest by invasive plant species? Is there something in the vibrational frequencies of the bee and insect wings that conveys information to the plants about how the plants in the next field are faring? Are they suffering from lack of water on that sunny slope? Are you lucky to be growing here on the shady side of the ridge because your cousins on the other side are spindly and dry? Is the farmer currently murdering your fibrous friends with their machines that foul the air and compress the soil so that extra work is necessary before life-giving roots can once again permeate its matrix?

Does the elm or the hackberry tree feel indebted to the birds who eat their seeds and shit them out along my fence lines so that I have new bird-shit elms and hackberries to clear each year, like magic?

Were the oaks disappointed to see the jays stealing their acorns to be deposited miles away from the mother tree thus reforesting the plains on retreat of the glaciers after the last ice age or did they somehow communicate to the birds that it would be appreciated?

I think the answer to the old question about whether a tree falling in a forest makes a sound if there are no ears to hear it has to be a resounding yes. It is the chemical scream of an injured plant crying out for another opportunity at life as it crashes to the forest floor. As humans, we don’t have ears to hear these screams and have only recently documented their existence [0]. Much remains to be studied.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/13/science/plant-defenses.ht...

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#88

Post by Spellchamp »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #39
tdb7893 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note is that being vegan is very difficult and most people aren't going to be vegan. One thing everyone can do is to cut their meat intake. People have meat for almost every meal and it's pretty simple to cut back and you still get some health and environmental benefits.

> People have meat for almost every meal I'm gonna call BS on this unless you provide a citation. Many people (in the west) eat a breakfast (cereal, pancakes, waffles, bagel, toast) or lunch (PB&J sandwich, salad) that contains no meat every day or every workday. Then you have to account for all the meals where there is no meat (pizza, mac and cheese). You'd need to have a substantial fraction of the population eatin…

I find it amusing that you call out OP for not providing a citation but then list a bunch of examples of things many people eat also without citation!

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#89

Post by bryanlarsen »

mcv wrote: post #82
bryanlarsen wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no ecologically sound way of getting vegetable calories out of the Montana native grasslands. The best way of feeding people using that land would be raising Bison; cattle are an acceptable second choice. But your basic point still stands. The Montana native grasslands can only support a few cattle per square mile, so it definitely does not work at scale.

There re many different kinds of soil. I can totally understand that some soils are better used for this kind of sustainable grazing. Other soils are great for growing crops. This should not be a veganism vs organic meat discussion, but an organic meat vs intensive meat production discussion. And a separate sustainable crops vs soil-depleting crop production discussion. You can't feed everybody on just meat; you're g…

"I can totally understand that some soils are better used for this kind of sustainable grazing. Other soils are great for growing crops."

One could readily argue that most soils are better used for sustainable grazing. Tillage is very intrusive, destructive and unnatural. Most food crops require tillage.

I used Montana as an example of a soil that would be quickly destroyed with a little bit of tillage. Luckily most soil isn't as fragile as Montana's, but virtually all soil is damaged by tillage.

It's all moot though -- our current level of meat consumption is way above the level that can be met through sustainable grazing.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#90

Post by justtopost »

akskos wrote: post #66
toasterlovin wrote: post #59

A point that seems to be lost on most people who advocate for a plant based diet is that not all plants have the same environmental impact. Among plants as a class , there is a 60x range in the amount of calories provided per unit of resources required. So it matters a lot which plants you replace meat consumption with. Generally speaking, beans, grains, and plant oils provide a lot of calories per input, whereas lea…

I can assure you that no vegan replaces meat with kale salads and berry smoothies.

My friends are living counterpoints to your blase assumption. Not to mention tons of avacadoes, which are notorious for their environmental impact.
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