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The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

sciencedaily.com

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Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... that's what I said... finding new treatments is like finding needles in a haystack, and science is the magnet. When it comes to traditional medicine, most of the haystack is really just hay. Historical trial and error told people what not to do, but it did not distinguish between ineffective and successful treatment due to generally high mortality rates and lack of rigorous testing. If you have time, browse th…

> most of the haystack is really just hay Citation needed? You can't blindly assert that something doesn't work by appealing to scientific methodology and its heavy reliance on proof without actually bringing that proof to the table. Otherwise you're just arguing from your own heuristics and prior beliefs—just like other non-scientific traditions. You might be right, or you might be wrong; but cloaking that claim wit…

Of course, no one can't assert that any one treatment does or does not work without scientific testing.

However, we can make educated guesses about the overall success rate using other cultures. Ancient Europe had many dogmatic medicinal practices based on tradition (trial and error), yet almost none survived the scientific revolution.

Given pre-science Europe's high failure rate, why do you believe other cultures will fare better?

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#82
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds interesting, but how would you know which species to attack?

Most commercial phages in the US (can't speak for the rest of the world) are comprised of these 4: LH01 – Myoviridae LL5 – Siphoviridae T4D Myoviridae LL12 – Myoviridae You can research all of these, but these 4 specifically target a specific but broad range of potentially pathogenic bacteria, including E. Coli (though not all E. Coli is bad) and other species. Generally if you take them together they provide effecti…

cyrusshepard, I have 2 questions:

-How long did you suffer from gut problems, and what exactly wer the symptoms?

-How long did it take for the problem to resolve after you started taking the phages?

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we have drug resistant bacteria, in a nutshell. Glad your mother's health is better, but if even a small number of people started following this regimen, it would be come useless in a relatively small number of years. edit: I would love it if just one person could tell me how I'm wrong instead of downvoting. Long term low dose antibiotic treatment (doxy is a tetracycline) is how this happens. If you look…

I Was going to downvote but I’ll respond instead. These people have legimate medical needs for this antibiotic so this isn’t a case where we’d want to withhold it. We’re better off spending our resources discovering new antibiotics instead of neggling who’s deserving of what.

It may very well be that either: these people think they have a legitimate need for the antibiotic or it is helping for a narrow portion of population.

The problem is, people without medical background cannot really evaluate if a treatment recommended by random blog is worth it, in terms of possible risk-reward. This can lead to all sorts of social phenomena, of which the most visible is anti-vaccination movement.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I Was going to downvote but I’ll respond instead. These people have legimate medical needs for this antibiotic so this isn’t a case where we’d want to withhold it. We’re better off spending our resources discovering new antibiotics instead of neggling who’s deserving of what.

Hashimoto's is awful, but it can also be treated with an oral form of the thyroid hormones to restore appropriate levels (levothyroxine as the original poster mentioned earlier). I believe this is completely effective (I don't know if the underlying condition still causes an uncomfortable/visible goiter). It's generally not fatal when treated. I'm sure you know that bacteria don't have to do traditional reproduction…

Hashimoto's relatively easy to live with (at least, compared to other autoimmune conditions). If properly medicated with replacement hormones, no observable change in life expectancy. If goiter forms (which is a complication of undiagnosed/under-treated Hashimoto's), it's solvable by surgery.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of the haystack is really just hay Citation needed? You can't blindly assert that something doesn't work by appealing to scientific methodology and its heavy reliance on proof without actually bringing that proof to the table. Otherwise you're just arguing from your own heuristics and prior beliefs—just like other non-scientific traditions. You might be right, or you might be wrong; but cloaking that claim wit…

Of course, no one can't assert that any one treatment does or does not work without scientific testing. However, we can make educated guesses about the overall success rate using other cultures. Ancient Europe had many dogmatic medicinal practices based on tradition (trial and error), yet almost none survived the scientific revolution. Given pre-science Europe's high failure rate, why do you believe other cultures wi…

> Given pre-science Europe's high failure rate, why do you believe other cultures will fare better?

That's a very interesting question and I've been thinking about this problem myself for awhile:

1. How do we actually know that there was a 'high failure rate' for pre-modern treatment methodologies (e.g. ancient doctors were incompetent)? There are plenty of stories of specific failures / successes (e.g. finding that the cause of malaria is not 'bad air', or discovering the germ theory of medicine + sanitation), but that is almost a tautology that every 'advance' in medicine represents a 'failure' of past medicine. That doesn't necessarily imply that doctors in the past were grossly incompetent at treating other ailments, especially given the tools available at the time.

2. Was traditional Western medicine, in practice, actually as dogmatic as we might believe, or is this historiography that we tell ourselves about the triumph of abstract reason over faith and received knowledge? Note that empiricism is often the opposite of dogmatism, but here you equate them. And if you have developed a 'dogma' based on tried-and-true empirical experience, then perhaps it's because the dogma works and is actually adaptive?

3. Personal experience with non-Western medical traditions, which are often the exact opposite of 'dogmatic' (e.g. always take this one true remedy for this one particular condition).

Chinese medicine's philosophy, for example, strongly emphasizes taking into account the entire history of every patient, which makes it 1) probably a better representation of long-term health but 2) very difficult to test in a double-blinded, Western scientific fashion because the personal, dynamic relationship between patient and doctor is integral to the entire process, and because the context of the patient is important to the treatment, whereas the 'FDA model' of treatment is a 1-to-1 mapping of 'condition' to 'treatment', with only rather limited ability to account for the patient's context (e.g. by pre-trial screening).

Note that the biodiversity of India, China, and South America is probably an order of magnitude higher than Northern and Western Europe (Europeans literally fought wars to have access to spices, after all), so these cultures have had much more raw material to work with for, say, plant-based medicine that Europeans ever did, and these plants were not just treated purely as medicines but were and still are integral parts of cuisine and diet.

As a Chinese person, traditional folklore of what to eat to cure various ailments is still high ingrained in society, and they 'work' insofar as I've personally felt physically better when I follow those dietary guidelines rather than not. 'Feeling better' is not something that is easily tested, and we even view it with great suspicion as the 'placebo effect'.

Note that I'm not advocating the superiority of traditional medical systems over the modern, scientific Western framework, just noting that the work of truly evaluating traditional medicines scientifically is still in its infancy in many ways, and is highly colored by the cognitive biases inherent in Western culture (preference for abstract analysis over holistic evaluations, mistrust of subjective judgment over 'objective' physical metrics, finding 'silver bullets' followed by widespread industrial deployment (e.g. antibiotics) over personalized evaluations).

Here's one interesting example of a traditional treatment that may fine success [1].

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15637565

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, this headline makes it sound like all autoimmune diseases stem from gut bacteria. That sounds unlikely.

Having one autoimmune disease increases the likelihood that you have or will develop another one. They also have cross-reactivity on tests. For instance, false positives on the TTG/IGA for celiac are 2% for healthy patients, but rise to 20% for subjects with type 1 diabetes. Celiac patients have a drastically higher rate of Hashimoto’s, autoimmune thyroid disease: https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/718160?keyw…

> So, the roots of all of these diseases could definitely be related.

Well, yes, but by definition they already have one connection at the root: the immune system. So increased comorbidity could also be explained by having a kind of immune system that fundamentally is more likely to develop auto-immune diseases.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#87
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's very tempting to blame everything to our "1st world bad living", but please do not spread misinformation like this about autoimmune diseases. I am 27, always ate healthy and was very active, yet I started developing ankylosing spondylytis 3 years ago, a very painful AI disease which attacks your articulations. And you know what ? We know that many Pharaohs of ancient Egypt had it too, including Ramses II…

A recent study indicates clinical evidence for remission through diet in IBD: "Clinical remission was achieved by week 6 by 11/15 (73%) of study participants, and all 11 maintained clinical remission during the maintenance phase of the study." Konijeti, Gauree Gupta et al. “Efficacy of the Autoimmune Protocol Diet for Inflammatory Bowel Disease.” Inflammatory bowel diseases 23.11 (2017): 2054–2060. PMC. Web. 9 Apr. 2…

That's really great, but I did that protocol strictly for 3 years straight and it never worked for me. (I continued it because it had a good effect on my sinuses, but not my lymphocytic colitis).
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