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Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

theguardian.com

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Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#81

Post by powercf »

SEJeff wrote: post #71
powercf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that, as time goes by, English use will become more common, and Icelandic less. The spread of the English language (e.g. the children in the article who '“know what the word is” for something they are being shown on the flashcard, but not in Icelandic.') is accompanied by the spread of US culture (TV, film, music). While US culture isn't neccessarily better or worse than any other, I get a lot of enjoym…

You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Equating the spread of English as a step in the Americanization of the world (to me) is a bit silly. I can reword your statement to use Spanish and Peru. It sounds just as weird: I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. In America, we speak all kinds of languages, of which English is t…

> You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right?

Of course, but it's not relevent.

> I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame.

Peru isn't driver of Spanish-speaking culture the way the US is the driver of English-speaking culture.

TV shows, music, film, technology news and discussion websites, …. Most are US-made, and go hand in hand with the spread of the English language. An English lerner in ${X} will watch Breaking Bad, House of Cards, Spiderman, … (all in English, maybe with suptitles), will listen to Rhianna, Eminem, …, and will talk about "Performance", "Data Center" or use other English loanwords (if working with technology at least). It's obvious to me enough exposure to US culture does lead to a US way of thinking.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#82

Post by groovy2shoes »

chicob wrote: post #63
johan_larson wrote: post #3

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, yes, it's a pity to see a cultural artifact like a language fade away. I get that. But on the other hand, having the world Balkanized into thousands of mutually incomprehensible linguistic ghettoes is a bad thing, because it makes it harder to get things done on large scales. Things would just be easier if we spoke a manageable handful of languages.

It's not like people resentfully segregate from each other just because they speak different languages. Languages evolve, change, innovate and sometimes they go extinct. Latin disappeared with the downfall of the Roman Empire (although it is still used in the Vatican, including ATMs), but paved the way for many romance languages. Even Navajo saved lives during WWII. Like species, we know they're condemned to eventual…

Latin emphatically did not disappear with the fall of the Roman Empire. Classical Latin was preserved not only by the Roman Catholic Church, but also as the lingua franca of all educated discourse in the West into the 18th century (at least!). Initially, this was probably because education was typically provided by the Church, yet its use persisted after the Protestant Reformation and through the Age of Enlightenment before learned folk began to variously adopt French, German, and eventually English.

Classical Latin aside, sermo vulgaris ("the common speech"—"Vulgar Latin") never died so much as it evolved over time into our modern family of Romance languages: French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Occitan, Catalan, Romanian, Dalmatian, Sardinian, …; the list goes on, but I'm sure you get the idea.

I think that, in the context of what I'm seeing throughout this thread, (and to be clear, this isn't directed at you specifically) before we worry that English will establish some sort of linguistic hegemony over the globe, we should first consider the processes by which some language or another comes to dominate international communication in such a way, and likewise the processes by which such an "auxiliary language" comes to be replaced eventually by another. I contend that the main reason English now serves the role once served by Latin is because the Anglosphere currently has much influence on the sociopoliticoeconomicocultural stage, yet it is not currently without rival on this stage. A century from now, it could happen that everyone will be learning Mandarin Chinese or Arabic or something else altogether. Perhaps Esperanto will finally take off.

Returning to Latin for a final thought: throughout medieval Europe this side of Macedonia, all educated people could read, write, and speak Latin, and no doubt they found that these abilities came in handy from time to time. Notwithstanding, it remained in place as a second language, reserved for specific situations and purposes, and they continued to employ their native language in their day-to-day activities—after all, we still have English, Irish, Gaelic, Scots, French, Dutch, German, Polish, Spanish, &c., &c. in the present. These are not the same languages that were spoken in the Middle Ages, nor are they the same languages that were spoken 100 years ago, but, as you pointed out, languages evolve and change.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#83

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

powercf wrote: post #81
SEJeff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Equating the spread of English as a step in the Americanization of the world (to me) is a bit silly. I can reword your statement to use Spanish and Peru. It sounds just as weird: I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. In America, we speak all kinds of languages, of which English is t…

> You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Of course, but it's not relevent. > I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. Peru isn't driver of Spanish-speaking culture the way the US is the driver of English-speaking culture. TV shows, music, film, technology news and discussion websites, …. Most are US-made, and go hand in han…

There are an awful lot of English-native and English-speaking Commonwealth countries (including the UK itself) which have non-negligible influence, including on the US.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#84

Post by thefounder »

tmountain wrote: post #48
johan_larson wrote: post #3

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, yes, it's a pity to see a cultural artifact like a language fade away. I get that. But on the other hand, having the world Balkanized into thousands of mutually incomprehensible linguistic ghettoes is a bad thing, because it makes it harder to get things done on large scales. Things would just be easier if we spoke a manageable handful of languages.

It'd also be easier if everyone painted all their houses the same color, ate the same foods all the time, and lived in a universally cookie cutter world, but that'd be terribly boring. Culture is embedded into language, and suggesting that we should standardize on a handful of languages for the sake of convenience places very low (or maybe no) value on cultural preservation. As someone who's been working very hard fo…

You can't experience much of that said culture without learning the language and something tells me you don't speak more than 3 languages so you end up with houses painted in 3 different colours while the rest are hidden in a dark wood.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#85

Post by smnrchrds »

thefounder wrote: post #80
smnrchrds wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Outside of the touristy parts of Reykjavik, everybody will assume you speak Icelandic until you respond in English. I am curious, does this apply to everyone or only European-looking people?

What do you think?

I imagine it would be latter, but I am not sure, hence my question. I have little knowledge about Iceland. I know for example in Quebec outside of Montreal, everyone assumes you speak French, regardless of your ethnicity.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#87

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

ocschwar wrote: post #47
dalbasal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A generation ago, Dutch minority dialects & languages were really discouraged and some were nearly killed. Kids were disciplined in school for using them. A generation before that, British accents/dialects^ actively suppressed to give way to standard (King's) English. I think there were almost no advantages to this dialect killing. Small minority dialects are at a danger of dying out, not crowding out the bigger lang…

Jersey Dutch died out completely in the US, without any suppression by the government. Cajun French is on its last legs despite government support. And it was purely the result of broadcast radio.

The US culture/society also tends to kill off non-English languages. Spanish is large enough and with a 'renewable' resource of Spanish speakers from other parts of the Americas that it manages to survive, but other languages do not fare as well.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#88

Post by intrasight »

wil421 wrote: post #78
remir wrote: post #76

I wonder what will happen to languages and culture when we will eventually be able to transmit direct thoughts to another person using brain implants or other tech. Imagine being able to communicate without any possibility of misunderstanding. The idea you have in mind is the exact idea the other person receives.

I don’t think it works that way. My thoughts are in English. I’ve asked bilingual people about their dreams and thoughts. Most of them say it can be both languages usually depending on where they are. If you mean transfer a feeling then I’d agree it’s possible. Like happy, sad, angry etc.

He may be implying a hybrid, which does non-spoken translation but also add emotional queues in order to make things clear.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#89

Post by ocschwar »

smitherfield wrote: post #56
Balero wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Wales the Welsh language has had a massive revival. It's taught in schools, and a basic understanding is very common amongst younger generations.

Sure, there's more interest in Welsh in recent decades, but I strongly suspect it will resume declining if it hasn't already. I used Welsh, Irish, Catalan and French-in-Quebec as examples because they're all languages that declined (to varying degrees) over several centuries under (varying degrees of) government suppression, experienced a partial rebound in interest and popularity in the 20th century after government…

Speaking of declining usage, ASCII art is on the same trajectory.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#90

Post by godot »

cal5k wrote: post #13

Just got back from Iceland! (I'm Canadian) Outside of the touristy parts of Reykjavik, everybody will assume you speak Icelandic until you respond in English. Then they'll switch to almost perfect English, with remarkably few exceptions. It was pretty amazing. In small towns like Akureryi, there's a lot of local pressure to keep signs mostly in Icelandic. I was actually surprised by this since there were a lot of Eng…

I went to Iceland 2 years ago, and visited both Reykjavik as well as the entire country. As an Asian person, no one assumed I speak any Icelandic and spoke perfect English to me. :) But I did learn to pronounce Icelandic names; by the end of the trip, words like Eyjafjallajokull was not an issue.
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