Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#81

Post by Xylakant » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #59

yostrovs wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diesel is subsidized, as it is in other parts of Europe.

It is not, and is not in other parts of Europe. The only fuel in Europe that you could class as 'subsidized' is so called 'red' diesel that is used in agriculture. You could run that in your regular diesel engine and it will work just fine but the coloring will stain the fuel delivery system and the tank in such a way that even many runs of regular fuel later it is detectable and this will get you a very heavy fine.

Diesel is taxed significantly lower than petrol in germany which accounts for most of the substantial price difference. One could argue that this is a form ob subsidy.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#82

Post by tyree731 » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

TheLostOne wrote: post #78

jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

Economy will crash in the next 5 years either way with mass replacement of people by AI (call centers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, ...). Edit: Plus German car industry will crash either way because most people work not in building cars, but motors, electronics, transmission etc. which are mostly redundant with electric cars.

This isn't sound logic. "The economy is going to crash because of reason X, so it's fine to make it crash worse because of reason Y".

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#83

Post by CalRobert » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

72deluxe wrote: post #65

jonasvp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Cars are a net negative for societies (see e.g. https://tu-dresden.de/bu/verkehr/ivs/voeko/ressourcen/dateie... ). Just imagine having most (80%+) of goods transported by cargo bike: lots of (local!) employment, lots of new technology needed, etc.

Like sofas, armchairs, refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, flat-screen TVs and oak beds? Great idea, but how would you feasibly transport them? The deliveroo boxes are going to have to increase in size...

Yes, actually. All of those things can be transported by cargo bike.

There is a place for automobiles, and vans, in cities (ambulances come to mind) - just like there is a place for helicopters, but what we have now is a gross distortion that came as a result of more or less legalizing killing people with your car (as long as it was an accident) and giving people ample free asphalt and parking.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#84

Post by Cthulhu_ » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

TheLostOne wrote: post #78

jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

Economy will crash in the next 5 years either way with mass replacement of people by AI (call centers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, ...). Edit: Plus German car industry will crash either way because most people work not in building cars, but motors, electronics, transmission etc. which are mostly redundant with electric cars.

Just like it did during the industrial revolution with mass replacement of people by machines.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#85

Post by govg » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

TheLostOne wrote: post #78

jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

Economy will crash in the next 5 years either way with mass replacement of people by AI (call centers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, ...). Edit: Plus German car industry will crash either way because most people work not in building cars, but motors, electronics, transmission etc. which are mostly redundant with electric cars.

AI is far from solving these problems to the extent of being deployed world wide.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#86

Post by Svip » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

TheLostOne wrote: post #78

jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

Economy will crash in the next 5 years either way with mass replacement of people by AI (call centers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, ...). Edit: Plus German car industry will crash either way because most people work not in building cars, but motors, electronics, transmission etc. which are mostly redundant with electric cars.

50 years, you mean? The technology may be moving fast, but the social/political/financial changes won't.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#87

Post by TomMarius » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:49 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #83

72deluxe wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like sofas, armchairs, refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, flat-screen TVs and oak beds? Great idea, but how would you feasibly transport them? The deliveroo boxes are going to have to increase in size...

Yes, actually. All of those things can be transported by cargo bike. There is a place for automobiles, and vans, in cities (ambulances come to mind) - just like there is a place for helicopters, but what we have now is a gross distortion that came as a result of more or less legalizing killing people with your car (as long as it was an accident) and giving people ample free asphalt and parking.

What do you mean, free asphalt and parking? I'm paying huge taxes and this stuff is built from taxes.

Edit: To the people downvoting: We're talking about Europe. The US apparently works differently, but that's not how it's in the EU.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#88

Post by Cthulhu_ » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:49 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #74

TomMarius wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course. People from outside the city come to the city by car to buy goods and offer their services because mass transit is not available or not practical. It's impossible to make mass transit practical for everyone.

It is practical to offer parking at train stations at the outskirts of the city so that people can commute to the train station and leave their car outside the exclusion zones.

That does happen in some cities - also to provide an alternative to exorbitant inner city parking costs - but it will add a lot of overhead to your trip, so for a daily commute it becomes unfeasible unless you're okay with adding 30-60 minutes to it. Every day.

(I did public transit to my assignment (working as a consultant) for five years; won't work with my current one as it's a 2 hour journey for just 60 kilometers).

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#89

Post by gwbas1c » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

One thing I've quickly realized from driving an electric car: gas (petrol) cars smell really, really bad. We're just so used to it we don't notice.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#90

Post by CalRobert » Tue, Feb 27, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #52

TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

It'd also practically stop economic growth of areas outside large cities and slow down economic growth of the city itself. Many businesses would be ruined (and thus people working on them). Many people would loose their jobs. This is a very backwards approach. Why don't we destroy our cities that have replaced the beautiful nature that used to be there instead of them?

For what it's worth, I'm trying to find a place that is free of cars because, well, they ruin life if you enjoy walking and cycling.

So far, places that come to mind are central Ghent and Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sadly the latter allows cars but they're still very few in number). If I were there I would expect to work remote, or start my own gig. I'd shop locally.

There are very few places in the world where you can live near other people and escape automobiles, and I suspect there are at least a few other people like myself.