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Why American men are getting less marriageable

businessinsider.com

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Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#81

Post by watwut »

hajile wrote: post #53
watwut wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay alimony only if you expected women to give up work for marriage.

You also pay off she says, "I don't want to work." Considering that it's illegal (as it should be) to force your spouse to work (or stay at home), your point is irrelevant.

It is relevant, because in majority of marriages in USA both partners work. Stay at home women, especially stay at home women without small child at home are minority among married women.

You all make it sound as if stay at home women was the norm, but it is not the case.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#82

Post by romanovcode »

moltar wrote: post #78
cimmanom wrote: post #12

Looking at this from another perspective: As a modern woman who makes good money, I'd be comfortable in theory with marrying a man who makes far less than I do. The problem with that in practice is gender roles in marriage. It's still the norm for women to be responsible for the lion's share of cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. Even in the marriages with the most "woke" husbands I see among my friends, the wife al…

There was a study that showed that the more chores a husband does the less sexually attractive his wife finds him. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-who-do-housew...

It's pretty clear that by doing those chores he is emasculating himself and thus making himself less attractive partner to the women.

I don't want to be a dick here but one cannot cheat the biological psychology of gender dynamics in a whim. Maybe someday, but as it currently stands it is just the way it is and there is nothing one can do about it.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#83

Post by romanovcode »

cimmanom wrote: post #68
Blackstone4 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if both are breadwinners, almost invariably the homemaking burden falls more heavily on the wife. Which is why I'm in favor of outsourcing (i.e. cleaning, take-out, blue apron). My friends (she's a doctor and he's a product manager) say getting a cleaner is the best thing they could have done for their relationship

Ok, let's examine that with a bit of critical thought. How does outsourcing help with a crying baby at 2am? How does outsourcing help with the mental burden of worrying about whether the kids have their shots and annual dentist visits and don't forget that you have to go shopping because they outgrew their shoes? And if you're raising two kids on a $35k nursing salary and the $15k your husband earns at the minimum wa…

If both of them start fighting about who's turn it is to take the kid to dentist then I gotta say - why bother with kids in the first place? It is clear that both persons don't want to deal with kids.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#84

Post by supreme_sublime »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #3
romanovcode wrote: post #2

I think the job/economy weights much less then the fact that marriage gives absolutely zero benefits for men in western society and implies a lot of risks.

The article implies these men aren't even getting to the stage where they can make the decision on whether it's beneficial.

It implies that but in no way proved that. The only statistic it offers is the marriage rate. As if women are the only ones who select mates. Of course they are the sexual gatekeepers.

It makes me wonder how much single motherhood is involved. I'm sure many men aren't willing to start a relationship with a single mother. Not to mention single mothers have a different outlook for what they want in a man than a single woman.

Perhaps if we had a more traditional way of life, fewer women would get pregnant out of wedlock to begin with, those who did would feel pressure to marry, and the fathers would as well. However now it is practically glorified to be a single mother, encouraging these women that they don't need men. I think this is pretty damaging to everyone, men, women, and the children.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#85

Post by romanovcode »

Gatsky wrote: post #49
Blackstone4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men, as they currently exist, are becoming obsolete. There will need to be a great adaptation and reassignment of roles as women will soon surpass men in their 'default' social, financial and political status. @Gatsky that's a strong statement. Would you mind expanding on your definition of "Men, as they currently exist"?

Only one X chromosome and a massive sense of entitlement.

All I see is you who are entitled. Sexes should always complement each other, not compete.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#86

Post by lotsofpulp »

moltar wrote: post #79
PuffinBlue wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution, in my opinion, would be to continue to erase traditional gender roles. If most of the men out there were ready to take on the homemaker role enthusiastically, I would be far more willing to consider them as partners even if they make a fraction of what I do. The solution is not merely one sided. Women must also be willing to 'give up' those roles. Say what you will about men stepping up but my ongoing…

And if we are erasing the gender roles completely, then women should also start fixing faucets, toilets, taking out garbage at night and doing other traditionaly male jobs. So far I have never seen this happen.

The frequency of needing to fix things versus doing routine chores is what makes those roles not comparable. Not that women also can't help fix things, and I'm sure some do.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#87

Post by supreme_sublime »

watwut wrote: post #22
erikb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. And I would even say that the traditional gender definitions will shift automatically if it's really the case that women can be the major bread winner in a relationship. The basic deal of "I give you a home, you give me financial stability" is a good one, no matter who's who in this relationship. It's just a transition that naturally takes 2-3 generations, and the people who are caught in the middle are a lit…

I think that "I give you a home, you give me financial stability" deal does not really work in practice. The one that is supposed to give financial stability is very likely to end up spending so much time at work, that home does not really matter. And if the work ends up not liked by him/her, resentful. And the one at home is very likely to end up feeling unappreciated, useless and so on.

That's a pretty pessimistic look at things. It sounds like something that could be pretty easily resolved with communication. Setting expectations for one another that have been clearly communicated. I know plenty of happy married couples where the man is the primary breadwinner and the woman is the homemaker. We are a sexually dimorphic species and have optimized our brains and physiology for that separation of labor. It is pretty obvious through something as basic as muscle mass.

Men want to be the provider. Men take pride in that and I think that is a good thing. While I think most men are alright with their wives working, especially when the children get older and don't need as much attention, they'd prefer to be able to make enough to let their wives do as they please. While attempting to become financially independent enough to spend as much time with his family as possible.

Perhaps this is a bit of a rosy view, but I think that it is much easier if couples swim with the stream of biology than attempt to fight against it.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#88

Post by brightball »

cimmanom wrote: post #71
brightball wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it’s worth, we are really good at lifting heavy things and reaching stuff on high shelves. :)

I can lift heavy things too. And for $30/hr I can hire someone twice a year to lift the ones I can't (and can't get a brother, friend, or neighbor to help with). As for high shelves, even if you're taller than me (not guaranteed) I've got this thing called a stepladder for that.

Well...

I got nothing. :-)

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#89

Post by Blackstone4 »

cimmanom wrote: post #68
Blackstone4 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if both are breadwinners, almost invariably the homemaking burden falls more heavily on the wife. Which is why I'm in favor of outsourcing (i.e. cleaning, take-out, blue apron). My friends (she's a doctor and he's a product manager) say getting a cleaner is the best thing they could have done for their relationship

Ok, let's examine that with a bit of critical thought. How does outsourcing help with a crying baby at 2am? How does outsourcing help with the mental burden of worrying about whether the kids have their shots and annual dentist visits and don't forget that you have to go shopping because they outgrew their shoes? And if you're raising two kids on a $35k nursing salary and the $15k your husband earns at the minimum wa…

I never said outsourcing was a silver bullet.

Outsource where you can. Where you can't, share the responsibility.

All of this is subject to whether or not you can afford it. I made my assumption based on two breadwinners.

In my mind $15k is a not a breadwinner salary. I had assumed since you referred to yourself as a modern women who makes good money you'd be at least making $70k-$100k.

Re: Why American men are getting less marriageable

#90

Post by Blackstone4 »

Gatsky wrote: post #49
Blackstone4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men, as they currently exist, are becoming obsolete. There will need to be a great adaptation and reassignment of roles as women will soon surpass men in their 'default' social, financial and political status. @Gatsky that's a strong statement. Would you mind expanding on your definition of "Men, as they currently exist"?

Only one X chromosome and a massive sense of entitlement.

I don't follow your logic. I feel like it could be interpreted as misandristic. Could you expand upon your view? Why do you think men will become obsolete?
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