Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan • Hacker News Board

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#81

Post by jimmaswell » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

rthomas6 wrote: post #64

jimmaswell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just recently learned about this. It's unbelievable. How can anyone defend a $15 toll? I'm glad I don't have any business in NYC.

They can defend it by having good enough public transportation to not need a car in Manhattan. Unless you're carrying something large/heavy, there's no reason to go to Manhattan via car. It's something we Americans aren't used to and don't think about, but basing cities around cars instead of people is a bad idea. In NYC, it's often faster to take the subway instead of drive.

Was Manhattan "based around cars"? I don't know the specifics but I thought NYC mostly just grew from its roots from a time quite a while before cars. I imagine a city truly based around cars could be made to have much less congestion while still accommodating walkers/bicyclists. More lanes between buildings, with sidewalks replaced by pedestrian bridges so traffic flows with less obstruction, for example. Less intersections and more straight stretches.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#82

Post by rthomas6 » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

Nav_Panel wrote: post #78

rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up. It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in tr…

I drive to work in traffic, and I would much rather be on a subway. Where I live, there is no public transportation from my house to my office. If I could take a subway, I'd be able to zone out, or read a book, or go on Reddit, etc. for 40 minutes instead of being on constant low-level alert while driving.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#83

Post by gbuk2013 » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #46

The London congestion charge is £11.50, and it works pretty well.

And it's now +£10 if you drive an old banger (T-Charge)

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#84

Post by Nav_Panel » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #13

liveoneggs wrote: post #8

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended up getting turned around and going over to brooklyn (tunnel, of course: $8.50 toll), realized he was in the wrong place and turned around ($8.50 back through the tunnel). This, of course, was after driving up from Virginia via I-95, which has its own $20+ wort…

I just recently learned about this. It's unbelievable. How can anyone defend a $15 toll? I'm glad I don't have any business in NYC.

> How can anyone defend a $15 toll?

Lots of downvotes but this is actually a decent question. Why is the toll so high, and why don't east river bridges have tolls at all?

The answer has to do with the bridge construction process and ownership. The George Washington bridge was built by a "public authority": The Port Authority of NY & NJ.

As explained in Robert Caro's The Power Broker, the concept of a public authority was to allow a public entity to issue bonds for and manage the construction of a particular project, such as a bridge, with intent to turn the project over to the city once paid off. Other bridges were constructed via authorities that are now owned by the city, and the city chooses not to toll them.

Robert Moses, master governmental hacker of New York State, manipulated the concept of the authority by "renewing" bond issues the year before they expire, giving a single authority (in his case, the Triborough Bridge Authority) large amounts of money, which he then used to complete more public works projects, which could issue more bonds, and so on. The result is that this authority never dissolved, the works were never handed over to the city, and the tolls remain high, basically subsidizing the authority's other projects. He effectively created a public body with huge amounts of money that he could spend however he pleased, resulting in travesties like the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway.

The Port Authority of NY & NJ, who collects the extortionate $15 toll on the GW Bridge, runs every bridge between NY and NJ, every airport, the PATH train, the airport Airtrains, and One World Trade Center, among other investments.

Effectively, the extremely high GW bridge tolls are subsidizing the PA of NY/NJ's massive losing bet on 1 WTC. And that's why it costs $15.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#85

Post by setgree » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

Weighing in as a Manhatto who works in midtown -- I welcome this! But another fruitful option is curbing the very worst behavior attendant to driving. Blocking the box -- apparently being policed heavily in Queens! [0] -- is typically addressed (near times square) by having traffic cops in the streets guiding traffic. How about tickets that scale up by orders of magnitude for each repeat offense, i.e. $1 for the first offense and $10K for the fifth and after that you lose your license?

The next thing I'd want to tackle is rampant honking. Not sure how to police this but it should probably cost $10 per second that your horn is making noise. that seems to me like a fair pricing of the externalities produced. And if you're honking to save someone's life i.e. if they're walking into traffic while looking at their cell phone -- ok that's a tough one.

[0] http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/09/21/ridgewood-ticket-trap...

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#86

Post by weatherlight » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

Nav_Panel wrote: post #78

rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up. It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in tr…

....and pay a 100$ an hour for parking?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#87

Post by flgr » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #51

jimmaswell wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax funded roads being gated off to those without higher incomes doesn't sound fair to me in any case, even if there are alternatives.

Sometimes, the world doesn't present us with a solution that is "fair", especially when demand is greater than supply. Assuming you were tasked with reducing the congestion of the road network in NYC and its surrounding areas, do you any ideas of a solution that is "fair"? Edit: Elsewhere in this thread, someone posted a link to Beijing's solution to congestion, which seem interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki…

I think that's not any more fair than a direct charge. Or am I missing something?

From what I've heard well off families in Beijing will then just have multiple cars, one with an odd license plate and one with an even one.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#88

Post by Nav_Panel » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

rthomas6 wrote: post #82

Nav_Panel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up. It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in tr…

I drive to work in traffic, and I would much rather be on a subway. Where I live, there is no public transportation from my house to my office. If I could take a subway, I'd be able to zone out, or read a book, or go on Reddit, etc. for 40 minutes instead of being on constant low-level alert while driving.

> zone out, or read a book, or go on Reddit

Kind of? It can get pretty tight to the point where holding a book up is uncomfortable or not possible due to lack of space.

You only get internet at station stops and not in the tunnels, so it's a little bit tough to read Reddit. I usually get around this by pre-loading a bunch of essays I want to read.

Yeah, you can put on your earbuds and zone out. But it's dark down there, and given how short the days are in the winter, it doesn't feel nice to be trapped underground for so long. I'd honestly rather take a reliable bus (as if these even exist) in the morning.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#89

Post by rsynnott » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

Nav_Panel wrote: post #78

rthomas6 wrote: post #42

This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, a…

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up. It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in tr…

It's amazing how habit-forming driving seems to be. A friend was recently talking about a colleague of his who lives right next to a tram stop and works right next to another stop on the same tram line. 20 minute tram journey, tram every five minutes at peak time. And instead they drive an hour to work at rush hour, because they're from a rural area and are used to driving. Makes no sense to me at all...

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#90

Post by Nav_Panel » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

weatherlight wrote: post #86

Nav_Panel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are stuck in old modes of thinking about the city. When my parents lived in the city during the 80s, it wasn't safe to take the subway. Everybody owned a car, even in Manhattan. Now, none of my (20-something) friends own cars, but I imagine a lot of older people don't want to give it up. It does seem pretty nice to drive to work rather than cramming into a subway car for a half hour, even if you're stuck in tr…

....and pay a 100$ an hour for parking?

A lot of street parking on Manhattan is free, if you know where to look.