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OpenSolaris is dead

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Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#81
post #38

Everyone seems to have missed - or be ignoring - the fundamentals of Oracle. They aren't in this game to change the world (ala Sun), or improve the lives of developers, they're in this to make bucket loads of cash if products they acquire will not make them money - they will ruthlessly cut it. They aren't hackers. They aren't designers. They aren't entrepreneurs. They're business men. Similarly if you dare compete wi…

The thing is, as someone stated below, Oracle is all about short-term wins. If Oracle wins this patent suit against Google and gets lots and lots of damages from it, that's nice, but it'll scare everyone away from Java. That's not good for Oracle or anyone else. If they'd just cool their jets and let things like this slide while focusing on creating great Java-based products and improving the Java ecosystem, they'd h…

> Oracle is all about short-term wins

That's the result of their bonus policies. If your bonuses reflect short-term earnings, that's the kind of earning your company will generate.

OTOH, this and the Google lawsuit are so completely boneheaded, I would not be surprised the people responsible for it end up like Rick Belluzzo or Sandeep Gupta - in nice positions at Microsoft properties. Even the lawyers are the straight out of the SCO lawsuit...

Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#82
post #77
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Oracle could literally wipe them off the planet if they were inclined. Oracle has a $113B market cap. google has a 155b market cap. granted, both those numbers are large, but Google's is significantly larger. how many google Engineers do you think it would take to build a rdbms that is significantly better than Oracle's product? It's well within Google's capabilities. And yeah, it'd be a patent shitstorm, but it's n…

I think you've missed a large factor. The leadership. And who they are. For example, Eric Schmidt is apparently a super nice guy [1] Larry Ellison on the other hand, has cited (I believe, Ghengis Khan?) "It is not enough that I succeed, everyone else must fail" So the leadership is drastically different in terms of how they work. Ellison is marine corp, Schmidt is peace corp. Could Google make a rdbms that is signifi…

>For example, Eric Schmidt is apparently a super nice guy [1] Larry Ellison on the other hand, has cited (I believe, Ghengis Khan?) "It is not enough that I succeed, everyone else must fail"

See, while I think that would make it /much/ harder for a little guy to go up against ellison than agains schmidt, being as oracle is /smaller/ than google, I don't think aggression is enough to tip the scales.

the thing is, aggression only helps you if you have the ability to take down your enemy. I don't think Oracle has the ability to threaten google's core revenue generating stuff, search, adwords and adsense.

Oracle is an enterprise software company, and google is a consumer software company. Completely different markets. I think either one will do poorly breaking in to the other's market.

my point with the rdbms is that there's something relatively simple (well, relatively simple if you have Google's Engineering resources) google could do to hurt oracle. Now, obviously, for it to really hurt Oracle, it'd need to be marketed by companies that can market to the sort of people who spens money on Oracle, e.g., not google. but, if you release something awesome under a loose enough license, that's what happens. Other people will take the tech, relabel it, and start selling it. Look at all the companies that took ZFS and started selling network-attached storage devices. (granted NetApp is now using it's patents in an attempt to stop that sort of thing... like I said, there would be a legal shitstorm... but it is cutting in to NetApps core market.)

The interesting thing about just releasing a RDBMS is that it's a not-very aggressive, very nerdy way to get revenge. it doesn't require Schmidt to talk about blood or anything, just releasing some really cool new software.

Now, it would be really hard to actually kill oracle, but hurt it a little, in it's core business? yeah, I think Google releasing an open-source, loosely-licensed Oracle-quality and scale RDBMS under a permissive license would slowly do just that. Hell, I've personally watched managers debate Oracle vs MySQL... and many of those debates were close. many more would have ended up on the MySQL side if Oracle didn't have some significant technical and reliability advantages.

My understanding is that Google's core business and nearly all their revinue comes from adwords, adsense, and search. My understanding is that everything else is just fucking around- e.g. gmail doesn't make them money (this may be wrong these days, but gmail is certainly small potatoes compared to adwords and adsense.) There's no way Oracle could put a dent in google's dominance in that area. Just like google wouldn't be able to market to enterprises like Oracle does, oracle doesn't know how to sell to consumers, technical barriers aside... and for Oracle, the technical barriers would be enormous. Oracle is used to customers willing to go spend an order of magnitude or two over the cost of commodity disk on storage. In the search market, you have to very carefully write your software so that it can work okay even though it is running on the cheapest and least reliable hardware you can find. (One of my past jobs was dealing with the flaky hardware at one of the larger search clusters.)

I guess my main point is that I can see how google could contribute to others chipping away at Oracle's core business... I don't see how Oracle could contribute to anyone chipping away at Google's core business.

Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#84
post #63

If at least ZFS can be salvaged from the wreck...

No way. NetApp will rabidly chase and kill whoever dares trying building commercial ZFS applications based upon OpenSolaris or *BSD (CDDL doesn't cover you against patents infringements, remember?). I know a well-known privately-held extremely-high-end storage company who just canned its OpenSolaris/ZFS projects because they won't take the risk to be sued by NetApp. ZFS as open-source is cold dead. Sad, but true.

I've read about NetApp /filing/ the lawsuits, but I haven't read about any results... Until it's over, it's just scary paper. have any of the lawsuits gone to court?

Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#85
post #63

If at least ZFS can be salvaged from the wreck...

No way. NetApp will rabidly chase and kill whoever dares trying building commercial ZFS applications based upon OpenSolaris or *BSD (CDDL doesn't cover you against patents infringements, remember?). I know a well-known privately-held extremely-high-end storage company who just canned its OpenSolaris/ZFS projects because they won't take the risk to be sued by NetApp. ZFS as open-source is cold dead. Sad, but true.

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Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#86
post #84
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. NetApp will rabidly chase and kill whoever dares trying building commercial ZFS applications based upon OpenSolaris or *BSD (CDDL doesn't cover you against patents infringements, remember?). I know a well-known privately-held extremely-high-end storage company who just canned its OpenSolaris/ZFS projects because they won't take the risk to be sued by NetApp. ZFS as open-source is cold dead. Sad, but true.

I've read about NetApp /filing/ the lawsuits, but I haven't read about any results... Until it's over, it's just scary paper. have any of the lawsuits gone to court?

Building a business around the hopes that pending litigation will be dropped doesn't sound like a very solid plan...

Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#87
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read about NetApp /filing/ the lawsuits, but I haven't read about any results... Until it's over, it's just scary paper. have any of the lawsuits gone to court?

Building a business around the hopes that pending litigation will be dropped doesn't sound like a very solid plan...

Yes, I'd certainly think twice about starting a company in that market right now. but my point is that to my knowledge, it's not over just yet for the companies that got sued... people keep talking like they are dead, and yeah, their future is in question, but "cold dead" ---? my understanding is that as of this moment, this is not true.

Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#88
post #46

OpenSolaris was dead long ago, this only opened the eyes to the people optimistic that things will change and there will be a future OpenSolaris release. "We will determine a simple, cost-effective means of getting enterprise users of prior OpenSolaris binary releases to migrate to S11 Express." -- Says enough. "We will continue to grow a vibrant developer and system administrator community for Solaris." -- I really…

"We will continue to grow a vibrant developer and system administrator community for Solaris." -- I really wonder how. They really killed the wrong Solaris. If they embraced the GNU userland (as OpenSolaris did) they would have had a much better shot at getting more raised-on-Linux admins and developers to embrace their OS. As it is, the current BSD flavored Solaris tools are so crufty and incompatible it leaves many…

There is nothing BSDish about Solaris. Solaris is as SysV as it gets.

Re: OpenSolaris is dead

#89
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you're saying is "Google, Just Cut The BS And Give the Gordon Gekko Speech Already": http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/13/google-net-neutrality/ I am not exactly a starry-eyed admirer of the Gordon Gekkos of the world, but I tend to agree. It would be refreshing if people stopped pretending that these inter-corporate battles had anything to do with either morality or the public good.

I think that's a very shortsighted and dimwitted way of looking at things. The nebulous things like ideals are what guide people to their longer-term self-interest, their enlightened self-interest, rather than short-termism which hurts them in the longer term.

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