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Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

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Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#81

Post by tobbyb »

dazc wrote: post #49
mabbo wrote: post #7

It's such a complex situation. Amazon has contracts with small companies who provide trucks and humans. Amazon provides the work, the groups of packages, the routes, the app the drivers need to use to deliver. The companies compete with each other for more 'routes' each day. They offer to take on more work, to do more. And then they hire anyone they can to fulfill those routes. The drivers themselves are on contracts…

'Who is to blame? Amazon? The companies? The drivers? Capitalism gone mad? Take your pick.' You can add 'customers' to this list since this is where it all begins. It isn't so long ago that all people complained about was the time it took for stuff to be delivered and all those 'we called but there was no one in' cards. So capitalism responded and now folks have something else to complain about.

Customers can only choose not demand, so this is simply a red herring to shift and diffuse blame and responsibility to consumers from the primary abuser who is actually doing this, and create an environment of helplessness.

Tomorrow if customers demand 10% of the existing prices are companies going to line up with slave labour conditions to deliver and then shift blame? Responsibility does not work like this.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#82

Post by michaelt »

1337biz wrote: post #61
naner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this sort of thing a lot in the job market: performance or pay are directly tied to metrics resulting in employees being incentivized into odd behaviors (breaking the law, sabotaging coworkers, skipping breaks/lunch, stagtegically cancelling or avoiding work, etc). This type of management through metrics goes hand in hand with the gig economy and also temp agency/contract work.

Completely agree, but I would say that this is not a new gig econmy/temp contract thing but originates actually from the world of manufacturing. It's almost like a retro trend.

Manufacturing piecework has existed for hundreds of years, you're right, but there are some crucial differences.

If you're assembling widgets at home, your throughput - and hence your workload and earnings - will be about the same from day to day and from week to week. If you're sick you don't earn money - but you're not otherwise punished.

On the other hand if you're delivering for Amazon, your earnings vary with their sales, which you have no control over. And if you can't drive due to poor weather or sickness? Sometimes you owe your employer money!

I agree it's not new for companies to structure themselves to incentivises breaking the law and unsafe behaviour. What the gig economy adds is transferring business risks like poor sales, bad weather and sickness to hourly paid employees also.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#83

Post by bhouston »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #44
naner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this sort of thing a lot in the job market: performance or pay are directly tied to metrics resulting in employees being incentivized into odd behaviors (breaking the law, sabotaging coworkers, skipping breaks/lunch, stagtegically cancelling or avoiding work, etc). This type of management through metrics goes hand in hand with the gig economy and also temp agency/contract work.

And the people making those incentives know it! They can't always legally tell an employee to do bad/illegal things, but they sure know how to build a system where thats the only option.

There should be laws against creating a metric-based system that clearly causes people to work for less than minimum wage and to violate standard employment conditions (e.g. required breaks.)

This type of gig is just a means to exploit poor people by one of the riches, most successful companies on the planet.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#84

Post by dazc »

tobbyb wrote: post #81
dazc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Who is to blame? Amazon? The companies? The drivers? Capitalism gone mad? Take your pick.' You can add 'customers' to this list since this is where it all begins. It isn't so long ago that all people complained about was the time it took for stuff to be delivered and all those 'we called but there was no one in' cards. So capitalism responded and now folks have something else to complain about.

Customers can only choose not demand, so this is simply a red herring to shift and diffuse blame and responsibility to consumers from the primary abuser who is actually doing this, and create an environment of helplessness. Tomorrow if customers demand 10% of the existing prices are companies going to line up with slave labour conditions to deliver and then shift blame? Responsibility does not work like this.

'..are companies going to line up with slave labour conditions to deliver and then shift blame?'

No because we don't drag people off the street and force them to be delivery drivers. There is a level at which people feel incentivised to do this kind of work and there is a level at which they look for something else.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#85

Post by Declanomous »

bob_theslob646 wrote: post #20
anonathon0000 wrote: post #18

I'm a supervisor at UPS, so maybe I can offer an opinion (this is a throwaway account). I'm not sure if there is anything analogous to the US Department Of Transportation in England, but we have to abide by pretty strict rules here in the USA regarding driving hours. A UPS driver cannot work over 14 hours on a shift, must have 10 hours between shifts, and cannot exceed 60 hours in a week without (IIRC) 38 consecutive…

Thank you for your candid response. Would you be able to answer how many packages the average driver delivers on a route and what happens if a package is stolen i.e who is liable? Curious to see how often package theft occurs. Thanks again!

I'm not op, but I'm a seasonal driver, and I've delivered about 200-250 packages a day on a suburban route so far. My understanding is that the number of stops you have is directly related to the density of your route. So routes with stops that are closer together have a lot more packages.

On my first day a package was stolen, and I got a stapled packet with all of the information that UPS knew about the package (when it was delivered, what location it was delivered to, where the truck was when it was marked delivered), etc. I have to go interview the person making the claim.

We aren't supposed to leave any packages that are of obvious high value, such as laptops, TV's, or any Apple product. Houses with a lot of claims will be flagged and required to always sign for packages.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#86

Post by eeZah7Ux »

dazc wrote: post #49
mabbo wrote: post #7

It's such a complex situation. Amazon has contracts with small companies who provide trucks and humans. Amazon provides the work, the groups of packages, the routes, the app the drivers need to use to deliver. The companies compete with each other for more 'routes' each day. They offer to take on more work, to do more. And then they hire anyone they can to fulfill those routes. The drivers themselves are on contracts…

'Who is to blame? Amazon? The companies? The drivers? Capitalism gone mad? Take your pick.' You can add 'customers' to this list since this is where it all begins. It isn't so long ago that all people complained about was the time it took for stuff to be delivered and all those 'we called but there was no one in' cards. So capitalism responded and now folks have something else to complain about.

Of all involved parties, drivers and customers are the ones with least power to influence this decisions. By far.

That's why unions and governments pushed hard to regulate employment to protect workers during the last 150 years.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#87

Post by Spooky23 »

naner wrote: post #24
deanCommie wrote: post #14

On reddit, "spagheddie" wrote: I was once a FedEx delivery driver, so I don't know how it is for Amazon, but I would imagine it's similar? At FedEx we got paid per package delivered, which means the faster you deliver your packages, the more you are technically getting paid per hour. In addition to this, you'd get a daily bonus for delivering the packages fast. We could take our lunches whenever, nobody cared as long…

I've noticed this sort of thing a lot in the job market: performance or pay are directly tied to metrics resulting in employees being incentivized into odd behaviors (breaking the law, sabotaging coworkers, skipping breaks/lunch, stagtegically cancelling or avoiding work, etc). This type of management through metrics goes hand in hand with the gig economy and also temp agency/contract work.

Also note that the better carriers that don’t do bullshit like this (FedEx Express, UPS) perform better and are very competitive.

I work at a place that has acquired ITIL religion for technology operations. Just like the minimum wage driver, it encourages bullshittery like this and wastes money to provide inferior service. Unfortunately, once you’ve found Jesus (aka metrics), the answer to all questions is more religion.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#88

Post by [deleted] »

zw123456 wrote: post #42

I always wondered why not have all delivery done at night? There is a lot less traffic generally between 10PM and 6AM for example, it seems like they could do a lot more deliveries and it would put less load on the highways and be safer and less stressful for drivers. And not sitting in traffic jams means less fuel consumption. Is there some reason why that is not done?

[deleted]

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#89

Post by Declanomous »

zw123456 wrote: post #42

I always wondered why not have all delivery done at night? There is a lot less traffic generally between 10PM and 6AM for example, it seems like they could do a lot more deliveries and it would put less load on the highways and be safer and less stressful for drivers. And not sitting in traffic jams means less fuel consumption. Is there some reason why that is not done?

I'm working for UPS seasonally right now, and delivering packages after the sun goes down is about 3 times slower because it's so much harder to find people house numbers, and people's walkways and porches aren't well lit.

Working night shift isn't particularly appealing either, and residential streets don't have much traffic. UPS has a union who would oppose these changes I'm sure.

Re: Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions

#90

Post by dazc »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #86
dazc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Who is to blame? Amazon? The companies? The drivers? Capitalism gone mad? Take your pick.' You can add 'customers' to this list since this is where it all begins. It isn't so long ago that all people complained about was the time it took for stuff to be delivered and all those 'we called but there was no one in' cards. So capitalism responded and now folks have something else to complain about.

Of all involved parties, drivers and customers are the ones with least power to influence this decisions. By far. That's why unions and governments pushed hard to regulate employment to protect workers during the last 150 years.

Yes and then (in the UK) the labour movement split into working class people and middle class people with a socialist ideology.

As it turned out, the two are not mutually compatible.

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