Don't Talk to the Police (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#81

Post by nabla9 » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

slazaro wrote: post #2

I keep rewatching this video every now and then, very recommended if you're from the U.S. I wonder how much does all this information apply to other countries (for instance, in the EU).

The main principles apply to all EU countries, the details differ. Each member state implemetns these thigns differently but they must comply with the European Convention on Human Rights

See 24/67 Guide on Article 6 of the Convention – Right to a fair trial

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Guide_Art_6_criminal_ENG.p...

>119. Anyone accused of a criminal offence has the right to remain silent and not to contribute to incriminating himself (Funke v. France, § 44; O'Halloran and Francis v. the United Kingdom [GC], § 45; Saunders v. the United Kingdom, § 60). Although not specifically mentioned in Article 6, the right to remain silent and the privilege against self-incrimination are generally recognised international standards which lie at the heart of the notion of a fair procedure under Article 6. By providing the accused with protection against improper compulsion by the authorities these immunities contribute to avoiding miscarriages of justice and to securing the aims of Article 6 (John Murray v. the United Kingdom, § 45).

>120. The right not to incriminate oneself applies to criminal proceedings in respect of all types of criminal offences, from the most simple to the most complex (Saunders v. the United Kingdom, § 74).

>121. The right to remain silent applies from the point at which the suspect is questioned by the police (John Murray v. the United Kingdom, § 45).

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#82

Post by kolbe » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #26

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

In my mind that question is reframed as, "how much do you look our for others vs. yourself?"

It's also thought of as obstruction of justice. So, you aren't looking out for yourself in this situation either.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#83

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

sherjilozair wrote: post #12

cryoshon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imagine a man face down on the ground with his hands behind his head and his legs crossed in a narrow hallway. the man is sobbing in terror, and drunk. two cops are pointing assault weapons at the man and screaming at him from 20 feet down the hallway. eventually, they shoot him.

Why do they shoot him? Did he move abruptly or something? What should I be doing if I find myself in a similar situation?

[deleted]

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#84

Post by Red_Tarsius » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

sherjilozair wrote: post #5

cryoshon wrote: post #4

tbqh i'm more worried about being gunned down by the police than being arrested or being searched at this point. exhibit A: https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/939014159726870530 (warning to system-believers: the link contains video of police executing a prone, face down, unarmed, nonviolent, nonresisting, white male; the officer was acquitted)

I don't think I can watch this video, but I would like to know what happened. Can someone perhaps provide a "transcript"?

As the suspect was crawling toward the police, he moved his right arm to adjust his pants. Bang, dead. None of this would have happened if the sergeant hadn't given many contradictory instructions to the drunk victim. The team was allegedly afraid of an ambush from the adjacent room, but they throw any caution to the wind straight after that. That video is a masterclass in incompetence. Neither the sergeant nor the shooter received any meaningful punishment.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#85

Post by pmoriarty » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:27 PM UTC

nateabele wrote: post #73

Uehreka wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder this when people bring this up. Am I a weirdo for not having a lawyer on retainer at all times? That doesn’t sound like something that would be affordable for most people. And quite frankly, I don’t even know how I’d go about looking for or evaluating a lawyer.

You're not a weirdo, but you would be a weirdo for not having, say, insurance (health/car/home/whatever). Unfortunately, the world is such that we're coming to the point where this just needs to be another item on the checklist. People find the resources to cover the things they need, and lawyers aren't all crazy unaffordable.

Speaking of insurance, is there something like legal insurance where you pay your monthly premiums or whatever and then when you finally need a lawyer, your insurance policy pays for one?

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#86

Post by yuhong » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:28 PM UTC

jwatte wrote: post #64

Society is better off if everyone can speak openly to police. Meanwhile, the risk to any one person that might accidentally mis-speak is wholly unacceptable to the individual. So we end up with tragedy of the commons. How did we fuck this up so badly as a society?

I wonder what if police was required to present details of the case before asking questions which may be used in a trial.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#87

Post by kolbe » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:28 PM UTC

joshmn wrote: post #65

As someone who has been through the criminal justice system a handful of times, here's what I always tell people: If you are approached by a policeman/woman, you don't need to say anything other than, "I'm going to ask you to refer all questions to my counsel as I'm not prepared to handle or able to answer any questions you may have." Don't have counsel? Get some. Can't afford any? Tell the policeman/woman that you'l…

How do you balance that and obstruction of justice for crimes that you are not a suspect in? Especially ones where your knowledge is urgent and your silence is a public danger.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#88

Post by mistermann » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:29 PM UTC

joshmn wrote: post #65

As someone who has been through the criminal justice system a handful of times, here's what I always tell people: If you are approached by a policeman/woman, you don't need to say anything other than, "I'm going to ask you to refer all questions to my counsel as I'm not prepared to handle or able to answer any questions you may have." Don't have counsel? Get some. Can't afford any? Tell the policeman/woman that you'l…

It seems to me that this advice forgets it's own lesson: A policeman/woman can only get you in trouble.

In many cases, a copy really does just want to have a 5 minute chat, and if you stonewall them (Am I being detained?), they might decide to exercise their power to get you in trouble, just to return the sentiment of unreasonableness.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#89

Post by cortic » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:33 PM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #19

whamlastxmas wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of countries have the ability to hold your silence against you. Thankfully this isn't the case in the US.

Citation needed.

“You do not have to say anything. But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.”

https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights

I imagine there is a sizable amount of injustice in the UK due to not having a 4th amendment like rights.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#90

Post by alangpierce » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 7:35 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

I think maybe a more nuanced rephrasing of "never talk to the police" is "talking to the police will only make you more likely, not less likely, to be convicted of a crime".

If your values system is to minimize your chance of being convicted of a crime above all other things, then you'd say "I will not answer without a lawyer" in this situation. But if you're a compassionate human being and want to help others, even if it sometimes means a minor risk to yourself, then there are plenty of situations in which you should talk to the police, including this one.

Possibly an issue here is that the lawyer in the video is giving both a legal recommendation and a moral recommendation. I certainly have no objection to his legal assessment of the outcomes of talking to the police, but I don't think he has any authority to say that I should be a selfish person.