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Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

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Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#81

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #58
olalonde wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question I was replying to was specifically about the US. From the same Wikipedia article: > The term libertarianism was first used in the U.S. as a synonym for classic liberalism in May 1955 by writer Dean Russell, a colleague of Leonard Read and a classic liberal himself. What precedes that paragraph is mainly about the French word "libertaire" which is not the French translation for "libertarian" but does shar…

You stated that left-libertarianism was an oxymoron, which is untrue and historically inaccurate, even within the US context. The sources in the the Wikipedia etymology section point this out if you need further reference: Colin Ward (2004), Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford: Oxford University Press, p. 62. "For a century, anarchists have used the word 'libertarian' as a synonym for 'anarchist', both as a…

Another great late 19th century American libertarianism was Benjamin Tucker who advocated for a form of anarchist socialism called mutualism in his periodical "Liberty". In the past decade there has been a bit of a revival of many left-libertarain anarchist schools of thought in America.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#82

Post by olalonde »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #58
olalonde wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question I was replying to was specifically about the US. From the same Wikipedia article: > The term libertarianism was first used in the U.S. as a synonym for classic liberalism in May 1955 by writer Dean Russell, a colleague of Leonard Read and a classic liberal himself. What precedes that paragraph is mainly about the French word "libertaire" which is not the French translation for "libertarian" but does shar…

You stated that left-libertarianism was an oxymoron, which is untrue and historically inaccurate, even within the US context. The sources in the the Wikipedia etymology section point this out if you need further reference: Colin Ward (2004), Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford: Oxford University Press, p. 62. "For a century, anarchists have used the word 'libertarian' as a synonym for 'anarchist', both as a…

The "oxymoron" bit was my own opinion, I just can't make sense of the term. I understand that some people use it. I lost you at the last sentence though, it's sounds a bit too much like a conspiracy theory. I'll stick with the more simple explanation given in the French Wikipedia article.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#83

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

pryce wrote: post #65
remarkEon wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On your first point, that doesn't seem like an idea unique to the Far Right at all. Plenty of Left Wing friends of mine don't think Capitalism works within a Democracy (though I'm sure for different reasons than Thiel). On your second, I think the virtue of Multiculturalism is at least worth debating. If he calls it "evil" that's not something I'd agree with, but that would align with a lot of Far Right thought. As f…

It isn't that Thiel thinks 'Capitalism and Democracy are incompatible' that makes him right-wing, it is that given he believes they are incompatible, he concludes Democracy should be discarded to preserve Capitalism, rather than the other way around. This is a far-right view.

Not necessarily far-right because the political spectrum has more than one dimension.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#84

Post by KGIII »

iand wrote: post #68
KGIII wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, no. Libertarian is, on the political compass, the opposite of authoritarian. As such, there's actually a whole spectrum of beliefs. Anarchists believe in no laws. Libertarians believe in increased liberty for the individual. This can be manifest as a reduction of laws, it may be as extreme as a desire for anarchy. Libertarian really is (was?) about increasing and protecting the individual liberties, maxim…

> Anarchists believe in no laws. This is incorrect. Anarchists believe in no rulers. Laws can be agreed between consenting parties.

Are those really laws? They don't sound like laws to me. Laws are enforced and don't require consent of everyone subjected to them. I'm not sure those qualify as laws, but as agreements.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#85

Post by baq »

0xbear wrote: post #69
KGIII wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a fantasy world. A world which isn't going to exist, presented as a serious topic. Maybe idiot was too strong a word, but it was shorter than the alternatives. If she'd left it as a work of fantasy, and not encouraged adoption, I'd be less inclined to be disrespectful. However, she gave many talks on the subject and pushed her views as serious political philosophy. This was adopted by others and has pretty much…

Sure, she wasn’t one to turn down an easy buck and a bit of fame. Can you fault her? Libertarianism was never viable. It goes against human nature, just in the opposite direction from communism. Communism postulates that lazy people deserve everything (“to each according to his need”), so the wealthy and aspiring hate it. Libertarianism postulates they deserve nothing (“taxation is theft”) so the poor hate it. The gr…

don't know why you're being downvoted - guess being sane and actually using your brain for figuring out stuff from first principles instead of political axioms isn't fashionable. perhaps never was.

i just wanted to add that the poor don't eat the rich when they have nothing to eat. they do it much sooner, when they notice that the rich eat better and better and the quality of their food increases way quicker than theirs. that's when the biggest revolutions happen, anyway.

(guess what - i actually live in a post-communist country, too. most people here probably have no idea what they're talking about when they say communism.)

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#86

Post by KGIII »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #73
KGIII wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, no. Libertarian is, on the political compass, the opposite of authoritarian. As such, there's actually a whole spectrum of beliefs. Anarchists believe in no laws. Libertarians believe in increased liberty for the individual. This can be manifest as a reduction of laws, it may be as extreme as a desire for anarchy. Libertarian really is (was?) about increasing and protecting the individual liberties, maxim…

> "For the most part, the leftist leaning libertarians are extinct in the US." Actually there is a recent trend of leftwing libertains in America under the names "free-market anti-capitalist", "thick libertarianism", " market-anarchism", and even "libertarian socialism", all working inside and outside of the Libertarian Party.

There is. It's still vanishingly small. I probably could have phrased it better.

I sometimes describe myself as 'classic libertarian' but 'libertarian socialist' is also pretty close to my ideals.

Notably, I'm nearing 60 and I've never once had political representation. Not one elected politician has represented my ideals, at least not at the national level. There may be some at local levels, but they wouldn't be in any of the areas where I live(d).

No, no I don't usually vote for the Libertarian Party candidate these days.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#87

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

jacobush wrote: post #51
jjeaff wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the wealthy don't donate to politicians in the rest of the western world?

Actually there are many holdouts were this is frowned upon.

Frounded upon. Sounds like they still do it.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#88

Post by belorn »

pryce wrote: post #61
belorn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone who prefer cultural globalisation over multiculturalism a white supremacist?

Of course not. But Thiel didn't write a book simply expressing a preference against multiculturalism, he wrote a book claiming that multiculturalism exists to destroy white culture. 'White culture is under threat' is a core belief of white supremacists.

That would make the 'White culture is under threat' the core message of your post, not "how multiculturalism is horrific". The post you made (and I replied to) talked primarily about criticism to multiculturalism, and white culture is only mentioned a single time.

Cultural globalisation merges all cultures into one common. Small (or less vocal) cultures get less representation in the global culture, while large ones get incorporated more wholesale. Cultural diversity in contrast try to keep cultures distinctive, while also trying to dodge cultural tensions. White supremacists generally require that cultures stay distinctive, but they don't care to decrease cultural tensions. That doesn't seems to fit well for either side, and makes attempts to do so to look as political attempt of associating white supremacists with criticism to multiculturalism.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#89

Post by seren »

jjeaff wrote: post #38
Taniwha wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very American point of view, in the rest of the western world we consider buying off politicians to be be immoral, a corrosive thing inimical with democracy

So the wealthy don't donate to politicians in the rest of the western world?

Actually in Europe, it depends of the country but it is pretty heavily regulated. Parties are paid with a mix of public funding (propotional to the number of vote at the last elections, or number of elected public figures) and private donations.

Then for private donation (individual or corporation) there are really low limits. For example in Ireland, the maximum donation for a party per year is about 6,000€.

So sure wealthy people can pay up to that amount, but you cannot really be "bought" for that price. I don't think it is comparable to US campaign finance.

The system is not perfect either because public funding heavily favours existing parties and so, it is harder to run as an independent.

Re: Is Trump mulling Peter Thiel for a top intelligence advisory post?

#90

Post by KGIII »

0xbear wrote: post #69
KGIII wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a fantasy world. A world which isn't going to exist, presented as a serious topic. Maybe idiot was too strong a word, but it was shorter than the alternatives. If she'd left it as a work of fantasy, and not encouraged adoption, I'd be less inclined to be disrespectful. However, she gave many talks on the subject and pushed her views as serious political philosophy. This was adopted by others and has pretty much…

Sure, she wasn’t one to turn down an easy buck and a bit of fame. Can you fault her? Libertarianism was never viable. It goes against human nature, just in the opposite direction from communism. Communism postulates that lazy people deserve everything (“to each according to his need”), so the wealthy and aspiring hate it. Libertarianism postulates they deserve nothing (“taxation is theft”) so the poor hate it. The gr…

It's almost as if you didn't read my posts. You're confused about what a libertarian is. I'm one, and I don't believe I am taxed at a high enough level.

Libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian. Again, it's a broad spectrum on the political compass. There is still left and right. There are extremes and moderates. You're claiming absolutes and being polarized by assuming the loudest speak for every one.

If you read my posts, you'd see that I think Ayn Rand was a moron. You'd also already know that it is far more than just Randians. There's a wonderful Wikipedia article on the subject, if you don't believe me.

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