Tech is the best industry for women • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#81

Post by bhnmmhmd » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

civilian wrote: post #40

I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. Let's keep tech inclusive and ac…

I agree with what you said about meritocracy, mostly.

A few months ago, I made a sexist statement here on HN about women and that they don't think logically [0]. Well, I couldn't be more ashamed and sorry for that. I've known some incredible women in tech ever since, and came to realize that I was wrong. Tech is actually a place where women can shine.

[0] That statement got my account banned and I couldn't get it back.

Edit: corrected my sentences to better convey my meaning.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#82

Post by pigscantfly » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

Rjevski wrote: post #39

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you didn't need a fancy degree to get a job. What's wrong with a fancy degree? I don't understand why fancy degree is used as a pejorative around here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that most people these days that come from bootcamps make more money than people with "fancy degree"s.

Nothing wrong per se, but personally I see it as a waste of time - you could've built real products and actually improved the world during the time wasted on that fancy degree.

What about all of the grad students working and doing research? I'd argue that their labor improves society more than the average startup.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#83

Post by beaner » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

Pieces like this sometimes make me wonder if sexism is not actually more rampant in tech, men in tech are just more open to self-criticism and accepting that something is wrong with themselves and their industry.

All the things you hear about in tech, you hear about elsewhere. But the men in them don't seem to compete with each other over who can be the most self deprecating and sympathetic with those calling them out.

I wonder perhaps if this has something to do with the tendency of men in tech to be smart, introverted, liberal-leaning, wallflowers, humble (or fake humble), not socially well-tuned, somewhat feeble and self-sacrificial. (As a tendency, not a rule.)

Picture the employees in a Wolf of Walstreet type company, and employees at Uber. Is sexism equally frequent at both places? Probably. But which group of men do you see self-reporting and willingly fighting to adopt a self image of sexist? Probably not the Wolf of Wallstreet-ers.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#84

Post by FLUX-YOU » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

needlessly wrote: post #16

She goes to MIT by the way. (not saying she doesn't deserve it) I bet if she went to some no-name university and people saw her pole dancing then her employment would be more limited

I'm fairly certain someone would get less job offers in a more conservative or religious city. They could luck out and never have HR/managers google their name, but were it known, religious folks don't tend to look favorably on that kind of hobby.

I don't think her school compensates for her hobby. It's location.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#85

Post by pmarreck » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #63

civilian wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that there could be something wrong with treating a stripper "just fine". How should a person treat a stripper?

I'm implying nothing of the sort. I'm saying OF COURSE they treated her well. When they treat the unattractive and "not fun" (i.e. strictly professional) women that way, is when you'll know there's no sexism going on.

But unattractive men are also treated worse than attractive men. They make less money, end up in worse jobs, have higher mortality, etc. So you are conflating sexism with a general "beauty is better" bias in everyone. By continuing to promote this conflation, you are in effect contributing to a more toxic environment for intelligent discussion about gender, and wrongly impugning many good men.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/opinion/sunday/ugly-you-ma...

"Beauty is as much an issue for men as for women. While extensive research shows that women’s looks have bigger impacts in the market for mates, another large group of studies demonstrates that men’s looks have bigger impacts on the job."

"Most of us, regardless of our professed attitudes, prefer as customers to buy from better-looking salespeople, as jurors to listen to better-looking attorneys, as voters to be led by better-looking politicians, as students to learn from better-looking professors."

Also see: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-hea...

Now, I don't know why there is such... multidimensional asymmetry between the genders. But not acknowledging it/accepting it, and instead solely blaming men for the effects of it, is simply wrong.

If you want to blame men for whatever their natural inclinations are towards attractive women, then you should also blame women who find the #1 most threatening thing about another woman to be their beauty (see articles above).

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#86

Post by com2kid » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

tryitnow wrote: post #76

civilian wrote: post #40

I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. Let's keep tech inclusive and ac…

Lol, really? Tell that to software engineers past the age of 50. Look, every industry has its pros and cons. Sure tech is good for the Burning Man crowd (if you live in the Bay Area or other major American liberal city), but it certainly suffers from a ton of ageism, among other maladies. I think it all comes down to what sort of industry you personally feel more comfortable in. For me, that's tech, but if my conserv…

> Tell that to software engineers past the age of 50.

Come work at a BigCorp. Here at Microsoft, every age range is represented, W/L balance is great (people supporting online services who are responsible for The Phone that week aside), and every team I have been on strives for diversity and inclusion.

That said, is it a pure meritocracy? Of course not, people who play politics and are good at getting assigned to high visibility projects get promoted faster. But good work is rewarded, and people are generally quite happy.

Edit: The food isn't free, but the on campus medical clinic, summer farmers market, and other tiny perks that come from having a huge and expansive campus set amongst what looks like woodlands, more than balances it out.

And, regardless of gender, no one will bat an eye if you go at 4:00pm to pick up your kids.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#87

Post by whatsmypwagain » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

civilian wrote: post #40

I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. Let's keep tech inclusive and ac…

Tech is inclusive, accepting and weird as long as you're a liberal aged 40 and under.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#88

Post by stale2002 » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

dublinclontarf wrote: post #37

hammerzeit wrote: post #4

Please, before this degrades into the inevitable shouting match, let's please consider that there are two things that can both simultaneously be true: 1.Tech is less bad than many, many other industries. I can personally speak to overt, even illegal sexism in the field of medicine at a level that would cause riots in tech. I’ve heard similar stories in academia, to say nothing of fields like manufacturing. We live in…

I think the article highlights one of the good points about tech. The meritocracy. It's not perfect but it's there.

The problem with "meritocracy" culture is that it often values only 1 form of meritocracy and that is direct, technical, individual contributions.

IE, it values the brilliant asshole.

Sure, the brilliant asshole is very smart, and makes good individual contributions. But thats not really what matters.

What matters is the TOTAL contributions of the entire team. And the brilliant asshole, often brings a lot of INDIRECT negative value to that entire team, as he creates a toxic culture that negatively impacts the other people that he is supposed to be working with.

Whether or not a "meritocracy" is good or not depends entirely upon the definition of meritocracy that you are using.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#89

Post by austinheap » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

needlessly wrote: post #57

austinheap wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're totally right that a Name Brand™ degree will open doors at the staple companies like Apple/Google/Facebook. That said, the number of times I've been debriefing on a candidate and their degree came up as a factor is zero. That's after hiring 100+ in SF and interviewing a # I don't want to think about.

>the number of times I've been debriefing.. Oh, I didn't know you were the hiring manager in the world. Sry. Cherry picked examples aren't a good example. Logic 101

I'm simply offering anecdotal evidence from a variety of different companies across the tech sector I've worked at. I wasn't trying to imply I'm the "hiring manager in the world".

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#90

Post by anotherbrownguy » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

When it comes to some of these jobs, there seems to be a trope that the job market should be about "equal representation" which is complete nonsense but it is great for women because big companies want to present themselves as "respecting equality" and hence women are more likely to be hired in those positions than equally qualified men. So, yes, it is definitely very lucrative for women to pursue a career in tech industry. Even with that, there are less women willing to do it... which I think has more to do with the nature of work one is willing to do as their career more than anything else.

I have never read an article in one of these popular news sites on what should be done to increase the number of men to teach elementary schools or nursing or increase the number of women in truck driving or mining so I will not buy the "equal representation" argument.

But I will add that tech jobs are better for women because it is more likely to tolerate flexible working hours and remote work and is better for women who want to bear children and are willing to spend more time with them. I think if people actually believed that there should be more women workers in a particular position or industry, they would be highlighting more practical aspects of the nature of the job and how it might be better for them... or highlighting some positive and uplifting facts like the first programmer was a woman (Lady Ada) and one of the first programmers of general purpose digital computers (ENIAC) were also women... but that is very difficult to find. All we see is outrage politics (which I think is responsible for scaring away even the few women who want to do the job) and it baffles me that they continue to find audience for that.