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It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

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Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#81

Post by md224 »

adjkant wrote: post #73
md224 wrote: post #62

> there is no homunculus (or soul, or separate entity) calling the shots for you, but even if there were a mini-me inside of you making choices, that mini-me would need a mini-mini-me inside of it, ad infinitum. I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions.…

So your belief in free will comes from "It's going to turn out to come from something really weird"? That's not convincing either. I don't believe in free will, but I believe that there will always be the illusion because the computing needed to know anything before it happens is far too much, and if you knew, it would add another layer of things you'd need to compute, meaning you still wouldn't know your choice ahea…

How is free will not the same as choice? A lack of free will is an inability to exert agency through choosing. Determinism removes the possibility of choosing.

If you have no free will, you can't express yourself... nothing you do will be the product of your desires. Weren't you free to choose the words you wrote in your reply?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#82

Post by justinpombrio »

amasad wrote: post #38

The schism between our science and politics is finally getting airtime. Liberal western politics are based on individual liberty and free will. However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. Do we try to reconcile both views? Or do we drop one in favor of the other? This, by the way, is also the subject of Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, by the same author behind Sapi…

> However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will.

What is your definition of free will such that mainstream science says that we do not have it? In general, I'd recommend always stating your definition of free will when discussing it, because people's definitions differ.

Given that definition, how would the world look if we did have it, and if we didn't? (You are part of the world, so your inner feelings count, if that's all you think would differ.)

How sure are you that the world looks the first way, and not the second way?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#83

Post by zzzzzzzza »

amasad wrote: post #38

The schism between our science and politics is finally getting airtime. Liberal western politics are based on individual liberty and free will. However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. Do we try to reconcile both views? Or do we drop one in favor of the other? This, by the way, is also the subject of Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, by the same author behind Sapi…

"mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will" lol. You haven't even bothered trying to give a definition of what free will is... The definition of which is something for philosophers to debate.

What I think you mean to say is, at the level of human perception, mainstream science maintains the universe is deterministic (as opposed to non deterministic (which quantum mechanics might be (or "super deterministic)).

A deterministic universe is in no way incompatible with the notion of "liberty". You might think of each "choice" you make as a transition in a finite state machine. If you have more potential transitions from any given state, you have more liberty. You do choose what transitions to take, your issue is just that at some level the universe caused you to choose one of those transitions... well what would "free will" look like? A ghost ("soul") outside of the universe controlling your actions instead? How is that any better? Why does the ghost make it's choices?

Not sure what you even mean by science maintains we aren't individuals?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#84

Post by lr4444lr »

amasad wrote: post #38

The schism between our science and politics is finally getting airtime. Liberal western politics are based on individual liberty and free will. However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. Do we try to reconcile both views? Or do we drop one in favor of the other? This, by the way, is also the subject of Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, by the same author behind Sapi…

Maybe, but assuming Shermer has correctly conveyed the contents of this part of the book, Sapolsky's got a lot of nerve asserting so confidently in this book that there is such a definitively deterministic core to humans behavior at the macro level while acknowledging irreducible complexity irrespective of scale as he did so clearly in one of his Stanford lectures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_njf8jwEGRo&index=21&list=PL.... I really like the guy as an educator, and I'm sure he's earned his scientific chops, but that doesn't qualify him to be even an amateur ethicist.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#85

Post by ux-app »

dwaltrip wrote: post #72
hyperion2010 wrote: post #10

This is true even at a personal level. If you think you know why you act the way you do but you have never done an experiment to validate it you have a pretty good chance of being wrong. Even for simple things, like how fast you drive, is it the speedometer and you are looking at it, or is it how your engine sounds, and if turn up your music do you drive faster and is that because you are more aroused/excited, or is…

Everyone is living in fairytale narratives that we spend decades crafting for ourselves. And doing so has some great benefits! But it is also can be very problematic at times. I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative. It's a bit tricky... As with many things, I think basic awareness of the phenomenon is the first productive step.

>I've been trying to figure out how to live while minimizing the extent of my personal fabricated narrative.

sounds interesting. Do you know of any suggested reading on the topic?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#86

Post by adjkant »

md224 wrote: post #81
adjkant wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your belief in free will comes from "It's going to turn out to come from something really weird"? That's not convincing either. I don't believe in free will, but I believe that there will always be the illusion because the computing needed to know anything before it happens is far too much, and if you knew, it would add another layer of things you'd need to compute, meaning you still wouldn't know your choice ahea…

How is free will not the same as choice? A lack of free will is an inability to exert agency through choosing. Determinism removes the possibility of choosing. If you have no free will, you can't express yourself... nothing you do will be the product of your desires. Weren't you free to choose the words you wrote in your reply?

It's all about definition here I guess. I would say choice is the illusion itself.

I chose the words I did, but the "how" is all an answer of essentially very complicated physics, chemistry, biology, and everything I've experienced in my life.

>"If you have no free will, you can't express yourself... nothing you do will be the product of your desires."

This is absolutely false. My desires are still a part of what drives me. I express myself every day in countless ways. The distinction is that I didn't have free will - it was always going to happen, in the way it happened. My consciousness does not understand how it came to that though, so it sees it as choices I made. It's just a bunch of molecules reacting to each other. That doesn't say anything of what the reactions mean or make what I do or feel any less important.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#87

Post by amasad »

zzzzzzzza wrote: post #83
amasad wrote: post #38

The schism between our science and politics is finally getting airtime. Liberal western politics are based on individual liberty and free will. However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. Do we try to reconcile both views? Or do we drop one in favor of the other? This, by the way, is also the subject of Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, by the same author behind Sapi…

"mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will" lol. You haven't even bothered trying to give a definition of what free will is... The definition of which is something for philosophers to debate. What I think you mean to say is, at the level of human perception, mainstream science maintains the universe is deterministic (as opposed to non deterministic (which quantum mechanics might b…

I probably shouldn't be replying to people who end sentences with "lol". But ok, I'll bite.

>You haven't even bothered trying to give a definition of what free will is

I assume you read the article and we're using that as context in our discussion as people do when they're discussing articles on HN.

>The definition of which is something for philosophers to debate.

Not really, there are three accepted mainstream philosophical views on free will: libertarian, determinism, and compatabilism.

>What I think you mean to say is, at the level of human perception, mainstream science maintains the universe is deterministic (as opposed to non deterministic (which quantum mechanics might be (or "super deterministic)).

Not sure what this exactly means, but the "universe is deterministic" is part of what mainstream science claims.

>You might think of each "choice" you make as a transition in a finite state machine. If you have more potential transitions from any given state, you have more liberty.

You're pushing a homunculus theory of free-will here. The idea that there is a "you" that is making a choice for you. That's libertarian point of view.

>well what would "free will" look like? A ghost ("soul") outside of the universe controlling your actions instead? How is that any better? Why does the ghost make it's choices?

Actually based on your previous sentence you seem to believe that -- not me.

>Not sure what you even mean by science maintains we aren't individuals?

The break-down of the "individual self" as a theory. Look into studies done on patients with severed brain hemispheres. It shows you that there is more than one competing selves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx53Zj7EKQE

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#88

Post by wutbrodo »

s73ver wrote: post #24
Atlantium wrote: post #21

The human brain's electro-chemical makeup and its response to stimulus, both from the other organs and through the external sensory organs, are the reasons we act the way we do. Like the Human Genome project before it, this mystery can be solved with large amounts of personnel, money and time. Do not complain that it's complex (it is, we know, the sooner we commit the appropriate resources the sooner we'll be finishe…

No. Do not do that. The second that the cause/effect relationship is understood down to a neuron level like that, advertisers will abuse that to make things even more effective.

This is truly peak HN. No matter how philosophical or universal the topic of conversation, someone is still so mind-killed that their reaction is "how will this affect advertising".

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#89

Post by snsr »

taurath wrote: post #77

If you haven't seen the lecture from Robert Sapolsky (author of the book the article is summarizing) on Depression, do yourself a favor and see it now! He's wonderfully eloquent and approachable even to the laymen in giving the neurobiological underpinnings of what is a terrible illness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

Thank you

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#90

Post by amasad »

justinpombrio wrote: post #82
amasad wrote: post #38

The schism between our science and politics is finally getting airtime. Liberal western politics are based on individual liberty and free will. However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. Do we try to reconcile both views? Or do we drop one in favor of the other? This, by the way, is also the subject of Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, by the same author behind Sapi…

> However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. What is your definition of free will such that mainstream science says that we do not have it? In general, I'd recommend always stating your definition of free will when discussing it, because people's definitions differ. Given that definition, how would the world look if we did have it, and if we didn't? (You are part of the w…

This is really not a point of contention in philosophy. And that's I think why the OP didn't bother to define it as well. I suggest reading one of the philosophy encyclopedias online to get answers to the question of definition.
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