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It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

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Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#61

Post by amasad »

coldtea wrote: post #51
amasad wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the article you're commenting on? It said exactly the same thing, just different words.

The article (and several modern scientists and lots of classical philosophers) confuse free will with some external entity that can take decisions for our life while standing outside it (as some objective spectator). In the end, those decisions, even if they were possible, would not be free will, but either arbitrary (random) or requiring some homunculus doing the thinking somewhere inside us. Rather, I say, our will…

Sure, that's compatibilism. But it's not a scientific view, it's a moral one.

However, most people would disagree with you. The lay person's view are actually more of a libertarian view of free-will.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#62

Post by md224 »

> there is no homunculus (or soul, or separate entity) calling the shots for you, but even if there were a mini-me inside of you making choices, that mini-me would need a mini-mini-me inside of it, ad infinitum.

I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions.

This "Science disproves free will" thing has the epistemological hierarchy reversed: one of the surest things I know is my own will. Before Descartes could proclaim "I think, therefore I am" he had to choose to make that proclamation.

The argument that free will can't exist because it involves infinite regress is not particularly convincing: if anything, we should expect that our agency springs from something as bizarre as a causal singularity. Consciousness is weird as hell, and I expect the true nature of consciousness will turn out to be weirder than we can imagine.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#63

Post by dragonwriter »

felipeko wrote: post #45
dragonwriter wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarcity is a universal (more abundance doesn't cure scarcity, it just changes expectations of what is acceptable.)

Not really. Most people on most developed countries don't have scarcity for water, food, clothes, transport... It wasn't always like that. Things do become more abundant and people will dot not always change expectation on the same amount.

> Most people on most developed countries don't have scarcity for water, food, clothes, transport

Yes, they do. They may not have what you view as critical shortages, but if thode things weren't scarce, in economic terms, they would be free of cost.

> Things do become more abundant

Yes, but they continue to be scarce.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#64

Post by dredmorbius »

amasad wrote: post #38

The schism between our science and politics is finally getting airtime. Liberal western politics are based on individual liberty and free will. However, mainstream science maintains that we're neither individuals nor have free will. Do we try to reconcile both views? Or do we drop one in favor of the other? This, by the way, is also the subject of Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow, by the same author behind Sapi…

This is only one of several areas in which our institutional structures (including law, politics, finance, and economic theory) are at odds with scientific models.

As a famous Kenyan has said, "reality has a way of biting back".[1]

________________________________

Notes:

1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-38671714/obama-...

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#65

Post by d23 »

md224 wrote: post #62

> there is no homunculus (or soul, or separate entity) calling the shots for you, but even if there were a mini-me inside of you making choices, that mini-me would need a mini-mini-me inside of it, ad infinitum. I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions.…

> I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions.

And yet, my own fundamental perceptions say otherwise. If I sit here and try to decide to do something, how do I do it? I kind of... wait. Wait for some idea to pop into my head. Wait for something to appear before me. Wait for some feeling to push me one way or another. Try as I might, I can't find anything inside me that could constitute free will. Just a jumble of perceptions and inklings that change with the wind.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#66

Post by dwaltrip »

md224 wrote: post #62

> there is no homunculus (or soul, or separate entity) calling the shots for you, but even if there were a mini-me inside of you making choices, that mini-me would need a mini-mini-me inside of it, ad infinitum. I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions.…

> one of the surest things I know is my own will

How do you know you can trust this knowledge you supposedly hold?

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#67

Post by 77pt77 »

md224 wrote: post #62

> there is no homunculus (or soul, or separate entity) calling the shots for you, but even if there were a mini-me inside of you making choices, that mini-me would need a mini-mini-me inside of it, ad infinitum. I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions.…

The curious thing is observing the behaviour of the people trying to push that idea.

It's almost like they just use it as a tool to maximize their freewill impact in the world.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#68

Post by dredmorbius »

tucif wrote: post #2

What would be a good book to read before this book? Or is it friendly enough for someone new to behavioral science?

Quite honestly, I'd give it a shot straight up, and pay close attention to references. I suspect Sapolsky will point you to the foundational works as necessary.

(I've not read this book of his, or any others, but I've seen numerous lectures and interviews, and read several of his papers and essays. He's an academic, but one who explains things exceedingly clearly, and documents sources. Sort of the best of all possible worlds.)

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#69

Post by wickawic »

d23 wrote: post #65
md224 wrote: post #62

> there is no homunculus (or soul, or separate entity) calling the shots for you, but even if there were a mini-me inside of you making choices, that mini-me would need a mini-mini-me inside of it, ad infinitum. I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions.…

> I find it kind of amusing that people think free will is an illusion. It's a great illustration of how you can get people to believe anything, including things that violate their most fundamental perceptions. And yet, my own fundamental perceptions say otherwise. If I sit here and try to decide to do something, how do I do it? I kind of... wait. Wait for some idea to pop into my head. Wait for something to appear b…

That's a different axis than the free will vs determinism debate though. What you are describing is your (and my) inability to convincingly prescribe meaning to our actions. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it is determined.

Re: It’s Complicated: Unraveling the mystery of why people act as they do

#70

Post by 77pt77 »

amasad wrote: post #59
TheCowboy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue that it has been shown that it isn't so black and white, not all decisions are a result of pure free will in all cases. But there has not been some conclusion that there is no free will by "mainstream science" as it is still an open topic. It's also not necessarily contradictory for it to be a bit of both.

Do you agree with the following: - Mainstream science operates on the assumption of physicalism. - Mainstream science operates on the assumption that mind/consciousness is reducible to the brain organ. - Mainstream science operates on the principle of causation. What follows from that is that libertarian free-will is impossible. What you're left with is determinism (and compatibilism which isn't a scientific view, bu…

> What you're left with is determinism

Not true even at a fundamental level.

Why should it be true at a macro/aggregate one?

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