How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#81

Post by mikeash » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:06 PM UTC

rrdharan wrote: post #58

mikeash wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Displaying ghost cars and false cancellations strikes me as fraud, at the very least.

I kind of doubt it. It's not like you enter into a contract with Uber just by downloading the app, and I don't think you have a legal right to use their services. Maybe you could drum up some sort of civil rights violation? But I don't think law enforcement is actually a protected class...

IANAL or even very knowledgeable so I could be way off here. Looking up the legal definition of fraud, I found that it requires:

(1) a false statement of a material fact, (2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.

1-4 seem obvious enough, but I'm not sure about #5. Would wasting their time or interfering with their enforcement job be enough to qualify as "injury"? Or, since they're acting on behalf of the local government, would it count as injury against that government due to not being able to prosecute crimes and apply fines that they would have been able to if Uber hadn't lied?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#82

Post by menacingly » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:07 PM UTC

PunchTornado wrote: post #50

alexwebb2 wrote: post #5

Uber is having a very bad month.

not as bad as the company deserves.

Kind of weird IMO to think of a company as deserving or not deserving something. It's a group of people with a with array of opinions and behavior, many of whom probably like having a place to work

It's much more constructive to want the organization to get better than to cheer on some kind of punishment we think it's owed

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#83

Post by LyndsySimon » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:07 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #74

lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

Did you just make the argument that the government enforcing the laws is immoral?

It looks that way - and for what it's worth, it's not exactly an unprecedented position.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#84

Post by dnautics » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:07 PM UTC

maldusiecle wrote: post #24

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

As horrible as Uber is, it hasn't done any extrajudicial drone strikes on civilians, yet.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#85

Post by alphonsegaston » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:07 PM UTC

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

This is an absurd false equivalency. The NSA isn't tracking down drivers, this is local law enforcement. They could be investigating a crime related to an Uber driver, but not specifically about the legality of the service.

What if you were just robbed or assaulted by a driver and Uber sends fake data about nearby cars when a cop is trying to use the app to track them down?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#86

Post by downandout » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:08 PM UTC

This is certainly a hardball approach, but I see nothing especially wrong with it. When you install Uber, you authorize it to send location data. If you happen to work at a transportation enforcement office, that is going to be immediately apparent to them unless you take countermeasures, such as using a GPS spoofing app.

If I declare myself to be an enemy of a given entity, I fully expect them to use every resource at their disposal to attempt to defeat me - especially when that entity has billions of dollars at stake. That they are using tactics like this shouldn't be surprising. It should be expected.

I kind of have a newfound respect for Uber's ingenuity after reading this. It's probably one of hundreds of examples of the reasons that they have risen so fast.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#87

Post by ahoy » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:08 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #74

lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

Did you just make the argument that the government enforcing the laws is immoral?

Welcome to libertarianism.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#88

Post by andmarios » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:08 PM UTC

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

Only if by startup you mean a company that rich investors showered with tens of billions of dollars.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#89

Post by LyndsySimon » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:08 PM UTC

Wizek wrote: post #75

lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

Flee? Sure, if you are already wanted for arrest. Otherwise you can also move/emigrate. Which sounds a lot less dramatic than 'flee'.

For what it's worth, the US government requires income tax to be paid on foreign earnings, even while living and working overseas. To avoid that, you'd have to also renounce citizenships, which is expensive and at the government's discretion.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#90

Post by JamilD » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:09 PM UTC

vthallam wrote: post #43

JamilD wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People generally feel more empowered to call out a company when others do. It's not so much about the media piling on Uber, as employees feeling safe in talking about their company's problems.

I don't think NYTimes need empowerment or to wait for someone to call out Uber to publish this story. I can only guess of a negative PR campaign from an apparent competitor, it's very obvious if you see anonymous medium posts(minus the susan flower's) and the hyperbole created about Travis's video and now this. Like everyone, I want them to pay for the culture they created at their company which resulted in employee…

We should hold governments and companies accountable no matter what they do.

It's not a hate campaign to call institutions out on their transgressions. It's not unfair to call out injustice wherever it exists.