Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#81

Post by orblivion » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:21 AM UTC

jballanc wrote: post #47

JurgenJugglar wrote: post #34

>these two women are "as fat as whales" and furthermore that they deserve to be derided based on physical appearance because of their expressed political opinions. Comedic body shapes paired with comedic political views and philosophies. What's wrong with it? They tried cheap virtue signaling and lost the bet. Boo hoo my sympathies. To deride the visual and linguistic imagination of cognitive entities as "hate speech…

The question at the crux of it, and this is where it gets complicated, is would the same joke be made if they were men? Or a bit simpler of a question would be: were there overweight male celebrities that denounced Trump and claimed they would move to Canada should he win, and have any jokes been made at their expense related to their weight? If the answer to either question is "no", then this post qualifies as hate…

For what it's worth, from a quick Google search they make occasional jokes about Chris Christie despite him being on the right team. I can only imagine they would give him similar treatment to the ladies if he were on the wrong side.

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#82

Post by sanswork » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:22 AM UTC

grzm wrote: post #49

the8472 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of public spaces available, maintained by the government. Some plazas are larger than all but the largest private gathering places.

Good point. Any ideas on how to create similar spaces online? And how they should be policed? Should we have some government created forums? I'd be concerned they'd succumb to the same issues we're discussing now. One idea that comes to mind is forbidding anonymous posts, but then again, anonymous speech is also protected.

You create a website and post your thoughts on it.

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#83

Post by jballanc » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:22 AM UTC

disposable235 wrote: post #58

jballanc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious. So I looked. This was the top non-stickied post I saw: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5fltt9/amy_schu... To save others the trouble, the title of the post is "Amy Schumer And Lena Dunham Are Finally Leaving The Country" and the image is of two orca whales being prepared for transport. The very non-coded message is that these two women are "as fat as whales" and furthermore that they deser…

> I'm no lawyer, but I think that's treading awfully close to "hate speech". How about caricature of public figures? Note that they do not have to be tasteful or respectful. Just look at bankers depicted as pigs. I am neither american nor a lawyer, but as I understand it hate speech has a fairly narrow definition over there. It requires imminent danger of inciting violence. Merely expressing racist or other kinds of…

Profession is not a "protected group" (those are traditionally race, gender, age, religion, disability, and depending on the jurisdiction, sexual orientation).

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#84

Post by simonh » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:26 AM UTC

tux1968 wrote: post #16

paulcole wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit, a private website, is under no obligation to provide a safe space for free speech.

Of course. But then advertise yourself as such, not as a bastion of free speech and authentic conversations. To me that is admitting your side of the argument is weak and fearful.

I agree to the extent that this is about arguments, but this largely isn't about arguments though, it's about threatening and abusive behaviour.

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#85

Post by internaut » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:27 AM UTC

legodt wrote: post #12

wnevets wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're right, its not even coded hate speech.

This is a good way to acrue massive, immediate backlash on HN. Calling alt-righters out for being neonazis and reminding people that hate speech isn't free speech is apparently over the line for a subset of users here.

I'll stick my neck out and tell you I'm a quasi-neoreactionary, which more or less is to the alt-right what a Marxist is to communism. FWIW I'm not a white supremacist (or nationalist) and many NRX and alt-righters are Jews (including the inventor of neoreaction).

Actually read some of the material and see if 'it checks out' that we're all nazis. Scott Alexander has a essay called 'Reactionary Philosophy in a Planet sized nutshell' which is a good synopsis.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-...

Scott is definitely not a reactionary of any kind, so this is a neutral take.

Otherwise we can just call each other names and strawman each other all day.

Please don't come out with "I don't need no... or somebody on the internet said...". That is just lazy. I don't imagine all socialists subscribe to SJWism, since a lot of them are vehemently against it. Same goes here.

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#86

Post by disposable235 » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:27 AM UTC

jballanc wrote: post #71

rrggrr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a fine line between protecting the oppressed and being oppressive. When you misapply "hate speech" by using it to describe satire, or humor in bad taste, you run the risk of losing the "hate speech" tool to devaluation, blow-back and more satire. Some things deserve a response and others really are best ignored.

Agree completely. Where I have a problem with r/The_Donald is more than any one post, there are patterns that have emerged over time. Hence others calling out "coded hate speech", a concept which I am even more uncomfortable with than "borderline" hate speech. That said, the very colloquialism they use to refer to the opposition ("cuck") is merely a shortened form of a term ("cuckold") with a very long history of bei…

You are reaching for some quite indirect logic here. As someone regularly frequenting 4chan I can assure you that the sole target of the cuck insult is the male's pride.

Of course it being a sexul insult it is practically unavoidable that values and the female partner are indirectly involved in how the insult works. Well, technically homosexual couples can also cuck each other, and I have seen the term occasionally used in discussion about homosexual manga. So it really is not about the female.

Hell, even the fairly juvenile "ur mom" is more negative towards females than "cuck".

When women are attacked you will notice. Slut and whale are still the go-to insults.

So please do not shoehorn gender issues into everything. Sure, some assumptions are encoded into it. But it's a goddamn insult, not some friendly disagreement in a debate club. Please adjust your context sensitivity.

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#87

Post by grzm » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:29 AM UTC

GabberBots wrote: post #73

leephillips wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can exercise my right of free speech on my website. What do you mean?

Your having a website assumes common carrier and net neutrality protections.

I hear this argument a lot. From what I've seen, it's clear that ISPs are common carriers. I haven't seen informed legal opinion that this extends to websites. I'd be very interested in learning of some. Do you have any?

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#88

Post by leephillips » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:35 AM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #68

leephillips wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can exercise my right of free speech on my website. What do you mean?

Hosters and DNS providers can kick you out. This doesn't happen often, but occasionally it does, without court order, when a customer becomes too inconvenient. Some don't even want to deal with DMCA notices, so even when they get fake ones they kick you out after a few.

That's a good point - so even my own website is not as free as standing on the street corner and shouting. But if my hosting company did kick me out it might be (haven't checked) a breach of contract; and in any case I could be on a new host in a couple of hours.

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#89

Post by kyledrake » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:37 AM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #78

kyledrake wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. "Free speech" as enshrined in the US Constitution is designed to prevent the government from making laws against free expression. Any interpretation applying "free speech protections" to private entities hosting other private entities on their private property is either ideological, or an intense misunderstanding of the law.

I think reasonable people can agree that technology has paved the way for few exceptions which require special protections to free speech; i.e. Google should not be permitted by law to filter and censor search results for speech, no matter how disagreeable it is to you or the Google CEOs. Edit: In other words, no matter whether I like or dislike the 4chan community, an entire community of various forums such as that…

> I think reasonable people can agree that technology has paved the way for few exceptions which require special protections to free speech

Do you think it should have been unlawful for Reddit to ban Coontown? What would you think to be an appropriate punishment for this proposed crime? A fine? Jail time?

Re: Reddit Is Tearing Itself Apart

#90

Post by internaut » Wed, Nov 30, 2016, 3:40 AM UTC

fnovd wrote: post #65

throwanem wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arrant falsehood does tend to gravel people, I suppose. I'm not sure what anyone expects to gain by doubling down on the goodthink echo chamber that's just lost them an election. Emotional comfort, perhaps? I'm not without sympathy for the need - but that's a private matter. Governance in the US is public, and refusing to engage in the process merely cedes the field. Demonizing one's political opponents not only cede…

"One wonders if these people are people at all, or instead soulless golem"[1] The rise of neonazism in the US is real. To claim otherwise, to imply that it is an "arrant falsehood," is to be purposefully ignorant. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-LnO2DOGE

Spencer was being deliberately provocative. He knows the media will only play a handful of sound bites to spin their tales, so he gave it to them on a platter to achieve maximum coverage. And it worked. He is now the Great Satan, which apparently means lots of long interviews with major television and radio stations.

For clarity, that quote is referring to journalists and the media. Not Jews, as some have been heavily implying.

I'd like to remind people here that this is exactly Trump's playbook. You infuriate people, they are eager to take you out of context or extrapolate wildly, then curious passersby figure your accusers are not credible.

It's not a high moral ground tactic, but it sure works.