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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#81
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any data to back that up? I've lived all my live in Amsterdam and this is the first time I've heard of this. It sounds made up.

https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op... > We blijven nog even in Münster en Utrecht. Vooral bij geweldscriminaliteit is het contrast pijnlijk: een Nederlandse opheldering van 37 procent tegen een Duitse van 82 procent. "A bit more about Münster and Utrecht (1). The contrast is especially painful when we compare violent crimes: the Dutch solve 37% while the Germans solve 82%" Explain that to so…

Just a small/random additional tidbit...I'd guess that Münster is probably one of the cities in Germany with the most interest in good police work from a PR point of view because the German police university (Deutsche Hochschule der Polizei) is located there :)

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you are from the Netherlands or living there. I have been in Belgium for some years now. What's your position on Belgium outsourcing and renting cells in the Netherlands ?

Not parent, but also from a neighbouring country. I think as long as the landlord is not from the private sector, and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff, I see no reason why not to share all kinds of resources this way within the EU. Belgium does this for Luxembourg all the time, Germany and France mostly do it symbolically (joined military forces etc.). Would like to see more of this, especiall…

and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff

In the case of Belgium and The Netherlands, there probably is. A sizable minority of Belgians speak French, not Dutch, and due to poorer economic prospects they might also make up more than half the prison population.

But I assume that for people arrested for crimes in the Dutch speaking part, being jailed by someone you can't understand is Your Own Damn Fault. I mean, if they arrest Eastern Europeans then what are they going to do? Get prison wards to learn a bunch of Slav/Russian dialects?

Edit: Checking the facts, over 60% of the prison population is not actually Belgian, and this EC report: http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/bel/2012-19-inf-eng.htm

"34. At the time of the 2009 periodic visit, the Belgian authorities had stated that, in principle, French-speaking prisoners were not considered for transfer to Tilburg Prison. Two years later, it has to be said that almost 20% of the prisoners - Belgian or foreign - in Tilburg are French speakers. Consequently, a not inconsiderable proportion of the prison's inmates find it difficult to communicate on a day-to-day basis with the Dutch staff, most of whom speak little or no French. The delegation also noted that the instructions on what to do in the event of fire breaking out, displayed in the cells, appear in Dutch, Arabic, Turkish and English, but not in French. Such communication difficulties are not without significant consequences during official administrative procedures, particularly of a disciplinary (see paragraph 36) or medical nature. The delegation took note of the efforts made by the Dutch prison staff to improve their knowledge of French. However, the CPT invites the authorities to limit as far as possible the transfer of French-speaking prisoners to Tilburg Prison. "

highlights that the French speakers are out of luck although reasonable efforts are done for them.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#83
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it would be a good moment to reflect on yourself and analyse why the things I say make you angry. It's all backed up by data and facts. If you would take time to read the source (sorry if you can't read Dutch: the registered number of groups was 661, which is 40% of all municipalities) you wouldn't respond like that. The NRC is a very reliable (but a bit progressive liberal) newspaper. I don't care about the US…

It doesn't make me angry, but you are giving people a bad impression. So you are not comparing The Netherlands to other countries but instead to it's past self? That isn't clear at all from your post. And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing?

I'm reading a story about Dutch prisons with a lot of halleluja stories about how great the Dutch government is handling things, while the actual chance of getting convicted if you do something is getting lower every year together with the fact that fewer people actually report crimes. That also leads to less people in prison, or not?

I don't mind that people get second chances and help after they were convicted for their crimes, but they are simply not getting arrested in the first place.

Why would I compare The Netherlands to a country that's completely different like the US? That would make no sense. Germany is a very similar country.

> And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing?

I never said that?

Self-reliance in solving or preventing crimes is increasing.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#85
post #81
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op... > We blijven nog even in Münster en Utrecht. Vooral bij geweldscriminaliteit is het contrast pijnlijk: een Nederlandse opheldering van 37 procent tegen een Duitse van 82 procent. "A bit more about Münster and Utrecht (1). The contrast is especially painful when we compare violent crimes: the Dutch solve 37% while the Germans solve 82%" Explain that to so…

Just a small/random additional tidbit...I'd guess that Münster is probably one of the cities in Germany with the most interest in good police work from a PR point of view because the German police university (Deutsche Hochschule der Polizei) is located there :)

Because it's a student city like Utrecht ;)

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#86
The Netherlands is actually renting out prisons to Norway (and others). Norwegian prisons are famously comfortable and aimed at rehabilitation (https://youtu.be/01mTKDaKa6Q?t=4m18s) but we still have draconian drug laws (thanks to the US) that keep filling up the few prisons we do have. Half of our prison population is in for drug-related crimes.

Luckily this is about to change, as our minister of health recently proposed to copy what Portugal has done – decriminalize all drug use and move all drug related problems to the health system, not the judicial system.

To bad for the Netherlands – they will probably loose a good customer.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, going in at age 20 and coming out at age 34-41 seems like a pretty big chunk of your life gone?

It is, I'm not saying it's not. But the other person is dead and gone forever? Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment? I'm not talking about accidents (e.g. a car crash), but premeditated murder? I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

> I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

You're getting downvoted because you treat imprisonment as vengeance, as paying back a debt that is owed to the victim's family.

The more reasonable approach is to use imprisonment as a tool which prevents future crimes by the perpetrator and other potential criminals (through rehabilitation and deterrence). This yields better results and higher benefits to society as a whole, even if it might not be as emotionally satisfying to the victim's family.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, going in at age 20 and coming out at age 34-41 seems like a pretty big chunk of your life gone?

It is, I'm not saying it's not. But the other person is dead and gone forever? Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment? I'm not talking about accidents (e.g. a car crash), but premeditated murder? I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

> Does that seem like a correct punishment?

Prison isn't meant as a punishment in Norway, it is for rehabilitation of the person. People would rather they helped even the worst of people become members of society than let them rot in a cell for "punishment".

Did being sent to the naughty step when you were a kid solve your behavior or was it becoming a better person that solved it?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#89
post #71
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those measures will take a long time to take effect. You can't expect culture to change over night. Luckily if you want results NOW, all you gotta do is outlaw marijuana. Nothing fills prisons like a War on Drugs.

Cannabis is technically a white-listed illegal substance, for which the possession, consumption, and sale is legal up to certain thresholds. Amusingly, the sellers require a license and are not supposed to purchase stock to sell. Viz. The cannabis being sold is appearing out of thin air!

> Amusingly, the sellers require a license and are not supposed to purchase stock to sell.

Correct, it's a schizophrenic situation that pro-legalization and liberal parties have been trying to solve for a while.

However, since 2002 more conservative, christian and/or centre-right parties have been ruling who ideally want to criminalize again so it's not getting solved any time soon.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed! That will probably generate a lot of debate when Breivik comes up for release.

I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself. And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much b…

The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most.

I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.

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