Earlier quoted context omitted.
The taxi business is easy to get into (absent government regulations trying to prevent that). It's hard to see how dumping could prevent competition from rebounding quickly after the dumper's investors get tired of the losses.
You're just arguing that dumping can be fought with dumping and hence it's not rational for economic agents to engage in dumping. When did a rational argument stop the market from doing something?
Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
81–90 of 111 posts
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#82There are several competing efforts to produce low-cost eyeglasses. Focus On Vision has adjustable eyeglasses.[1] Project Congo has some kind of eyeglass-making kit.[2] Briefcase-sized eyeglass kits used to be popular in India. They contained round frames and several hundred round lenses. The idea is that glasses have three parameters - spherical curvature, elliptical curvature, and axis of the ellipse. The usual opt…
>The insane price of frames comes from a monopoly by Luxottica, which owns most of the retail outlets in malls in the US. How is owning most of the retail outlets in malls a monopoly?
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Invest in competitors or substitutes for the coming reduced supply Which will be at a loss, so you need just as much money. This is especially hard in developing countries. The market will still be destroyed, and you'll end up with a oligopoly. > Or, stockpile the goods you sell, Many things can't be stockpiled, and stockpiling also costs money (see the above) One example where private dumping is tried, is uber wit…
The taxi business is easy to get into (absent government regulations trying to prevent that). It's hard to see how dumping could prevent competition from rebounding quickly after the dumper's investors get tired of the losses.
To me it seems that you are using some game theory ideas to explain how markets behave. The problem is that you forget to incorporate concepts from the "reality" you speak of in the last reply - more precisely timespace.
If you incorporate timespace, the enounciation becomes "the probability of the market punishing dumpers increases with time and becomes certainty after an infinit milenia have passed"
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're just arguing that dumping can be fought with dumping and hence it's not rational for economic agents to engage in dumping. When did a rational argument stop the market from doing something?
The thing about free markets is reality tends to punish irrational business practices.
You say that reality tends to punish irrational practices which means that some escape this punishment. Hence I will conclude that with time irrational business practices accumulate in the free market.
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you provide a case history of an industry destroyed in this manner (selling below cost), where the dumper goes on to enjoy monopoly profits?
None of the cases I could read about discussed monopoly profits (so I guess, no - although it was not my argument). Rather they focused on the destruction of what were otherwise perfectly good industrial bases. So I suppose the point I'd like to refute is that "dumping is always a losing game for the dumper". The following article: http://www.nap.edu/read/5902/chapter/28 Discusses the case of the British steel indust…
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read that the alloy used in the tops of aluminum cans is different from the alloy used in the body [1], and as a result when they're melted down they create a third alloy. That seems like it's at odds with the claim that it's infinitely recyclable and "can be recycled and back on the store shelf as a new beverage can in less than 60 days" [2]. Anyone know the answer to that? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevera…
(I didn't downvote) Your wikipedia article says: > When recycled without other metals being mixed in, the can–lid combination is perfect for producing new stock for the main part of the can—the loss of magnesium during melting is made up for by the high magnesium content of the lid.
[1] https://www.alcoa.com/mill_products/catalog/pdf/China_Specs/...
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quality Paper (not 5th generation cardboard) is energy-efficient to recycle
It's energy efficient, but it lessens the demand for tree farms, which themselves are good for the environment.
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow, hard to believe this was actually linked to. That opinion article article was thoroughly debunked two decades ago, yet somehow it's still doing damage. Debunking the Myths of the “Anti-Recyclers” http://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/174_Sep96.pdf Recycling is not garbage - MIT technology review 1997 https://www.technologyreview.com/s/400100/recycling-is-not-g...
Think Globally, Act Irrationally: Recycling http://econlib.org/library/Columns/y2007/Mungerrecycling.htm... http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2007/07/munger_on_recyc.htm...
Tierney's argument that it takes energy to recycle is completely moot; the point isn't energy at all, the point is to recover materials & to slow production and consumption of wasteful single use containers. Combine that with our ability to use abundant and unending solar power, and you can see that Tierney's assumption that energy is part of the economy of recycling is a straw man and doesn't stand up to reason or reality.
Munger's entire argument is that recycling is expensive, there's a cost to recycling. Like Tierney, this is a misdirection. Cost is not the point of recycling. He's right, there's a cost, but he doesn't compare it to anything. What's the alternative to recycling, and how much does that cost? There's a cost to landfills too -- how much does it cost to throw away? Munger ignores the long term costs of not recycling. Running out of resources is going to be a lot more expensive than recycling. The byproducts of plastic production are toxic, and historically there have been some plastic factories that made workers fatally sick. Munger didn't try to factor in the health care costs of people who work in or live near factories. He hasn't attempted to consider the heavy cost of pollution. He doesn't calculate the costs of transporting garbage. He hasn't attempted to calculate the environmental costs of not recycling at all -- and this is the entire point of recycling, the entire basis upon which the economics of recycling is evaluated. The recycling movement is not even remotely concerned about the transaction price of recycling a bottle, it's concerned with slowing our frivolous and wasteful use of this planet's finite and valuable resources on one time deliveries of 12 ounces of Coke.
There's a lot of information on the many large costs of not recycling that Munger is deliberately ignoring, here's just one: http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/dangers-of-p...
Thinking about cost alone is a persuasion strategy, it's a way to manipulate the argument and the audience, it's a way to put something seemingly tactile on the perceived downsides of recycling. It's a way to convince you that you're being cheated out of money -- but he's the one trying to trick you -- don't let it work on you so easily!
If nothing else, if I haven't convinced you at all, at least Google all the articles you can on the critiques of Teirney and Munger, read them all and try to rebut them yourself.
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#89This goes for most (almost all) recycling programs. Recycling programs are a worse than a waste of money since you are using up some of people’s limited support for environmental causes. This would not matter if we did not have some really huge, long term problems that we need to deal with that we are not doing enough about.
I think this is a weird American political myth, like evolution not being real, or global warming being a Chinese conspiracy, or electric cars being worse than gas due to coal. You go online and you find the same talking point, the same urban myths (they just dump it in a landfill!), the same links to professional political pundit's think pieces rather than to actual expert opinion.
They've never taken glass for that reason.
The economics are better for bigger population centers, but here the modest amount of material and trucking really put pressure on it.
Of course there are several businesses paying for metal in the area.
Re: Recycling Eyeglasses Is a Waste of Money
#90Given two choices:
1) Give $5 to a program that provides brand new custom prescribed eyeglasses to people who need them but cannot buy them
2) Give $10 to a program that provides shitty, old, out-of-date, recycled eyeglasses of questionable prescription to people who need them but cannot buy them
Many people will respond more supportively to #2 and see #1 as fundamentally unfair ("I worked hard to earn the money for my glasses, why should a needy person have something just as good as mine? They should count themselves lucky to have anything at all!"). Many people see it as a moral imperative that the poor should suffer.