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Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

gabrielweinberg.com

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Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#81

Post by mapleoin »

axod wrote: post #48
mapleoin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storing that much data about users isn't harmless just because the company doesn't do anything bad with it. Even if that company would forever be good , they could still have their servers infiltrated into or stolen, or some government could decide that they want the data over night.

If you're looking at risk though: * Computer could have been compromised * Wifi/local network could have been compromised * Your ISP could have been compromised * Some of the peers on the internet between your ISP and google " * The datacenter where Googles servers are And that's before the data gets to Google. I'd guess that the most common privacy theft is at the first 2 steps - local computer / wifi network. Any o…

When we're talking about that much data, the risk isn't just personal any more. It's not that they'll embarrass you with your search words from 10 years ago or let burglars know when you're shopping for plane tickets for Honolulu.

It's about what that amount of data about a whole country 's population could be used for.

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#82

Post by webwright »

jacquesm wrote: post #62
webwright wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly a niche, but I'm not sure how many techy users really care about privacy. We all have Gmail accounts, right? Which store emailed passwords, password reset links, private conversations, account balances, and all sorts of other stuff? Another data point... Our userbase at RescueTime is comprised almost entirely geeks. We measure and store second-by-second attention data on their computer. We make all sor…

I think you are right but in the short term only. I think long term there will be some huge flap involving online privacy and after that people will wake up to what the consequences can be.

Really? What can the consequences be? I'm not being flip-- I think it's easy to say that but its harder to pin down dangerous scenarios.

The increasing fact is that the more Google knows about you, the better they can serve up search results (and ads, of course). I think most users would NOT opt-out given the chance to do so (if it meant harming their search quality).

Related quote from Matt Cutts' blog:

"It’s a long article, but an example useful fact is that if X is the number of people who visit the Ad Preferences page and opt out, 10X people don’t opt out and 4X people actually edit their categories to improve the targeting relevance of the ads they see. Let me say that again: four times as many people change their settings to make their ads more relevant than opt out of interest-based targeting. I think the Ad Preferences page is a good example where users get more transparency and control regarding their privacy."

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#83

Post by sounddust »

Goladus wrote: post #73
acg wrote: post #68

There's still an issue of trust, why should I trust Duck Duck Go any more than a company that has a reputation to lose? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

That's a question you have to answer yourself. Right now, Duck Duck Go is the only search service I've ever heard of even trying to make that promise. As an aside, there are a couple issues with companies and reputation. First is that a company might risk its reputation if the rewards are worth it. Second is that a company might care about its reputation but simply fail to hold true to it. Finally, a company might ca…

http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2007/07/ask-com-to-offer-...

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#84

Post by [deleted] »

Goladus wrote: post #73
acg wrote: post #68

There's still an issue of trust, why should I trust Duck Duck Go any more than a company that has a reputation to lose? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

That's a question you have to answer yourself. Right now, Duck Duck Go is the only search service I've ever heard of even trying to make that promise. As an aside, there are a couple issues with companies and reputation. First is that a company might risk its reputation if the rewards are worth it. Second is that a company might care about its reputation but simply fail to hold true to it. Finally, a company might ca…

[deleted]

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#85

Post by greenlblue »

webwright wrote: post #57
ErrantX wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By privacy conscious I mean users - specifically us techy users (where there is a lot of privacy debate currently going on)

It's certainly a niche, but I'm not sure how many techy users really care about privacy. We all have Gmail accounts, right? Which store emailed passwords, password reset links, private conversations, account balances, and all sorts of other stuff? Another data point... Our userbase at RescueTime is comprised almost entirely geeks. We measure and store second-by-second attention data on their computer. We make all sor…

I don't think the debate is about privacy but more about how certain bits of information about people can be used to manipulate their attention in order to make money. Google uses the information it collects to serve more relevant ads but this is in a certain sense an unfair manipulation of your attention and this is what I find offensive.

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#86

Post by jacquesm »

webwright wrote: post #82
jacquesm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right but in the short term only. I think long term there will be some huge flap involving online privacy and after that people will wake up to what the consequences can be.

Really? What can the consequences be? I'm not being flip-- I think it's easy to say that but its harder to pin down dangerous scenarios. The increasing fact is that the more Google knows about you, the better they can serve up search results (and ads, of course). I think most users would NOT opt-out given the chance to do so (if it meant harming their search quality). Related quote from Matt Cutts' blog: "It’s a long…

Let me give you just two possible scenarios, there are plenty more:

- An insurance company somehow gets their hands on search data and finds a way to associate that with their customers, figures out who is probably about to apply for coverage for a bunch of expensive treatments and cancels their insurance before they can make the claim for some trumped up reason.

- A political party gets their hands on this information and datamines it to the hilt in order to figure out which talking points to trot out on what TV stations in order to swing a maximum block of voters to them.

I'm sure there will be people that will say both of these are unrealistic, but I think that given the amount of data out there it is only a matter of time before someone will find a way to abuse it in a way that we will not be able to ignore.

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#87

Post by elai »

devinj wrote: post #49

It seems sort of like you're destroying the possibility for growth with this, though. From what I understand of Google's work, they really have improved tremendously from analyzing data (to find how searches go wrong), and from using the data in new features (such as with spell checking, adding new terms into the query, personalizing searches, etc.). And I mean, I value privacy. I do. But, I value the quality of the…

Why don't you just hash the ip and do a geo ip lookup before you log it? Voila, you add privacy, but keep the relevant data.

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#88

Post by jackowayed »

epi0Bauqu wrote: post #69
acg wrote: post #68

There's still an issue of trust, why should I trust Duck Duck Go any more than a company that has a reputation to lose? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

What could be done in this area to make you trust? EFF certification of some sort?

I think his point was not that you need to go yet farther to court the privacy niche but that you're going to have a very tough time doing so, no matter how hard you try. Google makes billions of dollars a year off of their search, so people can have pretty good faith that they won't do anything to make people wary of searching with them.

So you'll catch a small niche of crazies (but small in the scope of the Internet may still be pretty big) and maybe get yourself in some more people's minds as "that place to search if I ever need to run search queries that might get subpoenaed."

The solution, though, is NOT to invest lots of time, energy, and money into make people think of you as better for privacy. You're currently the only search engine that logs so little, so you've got that niche (within people who know about you). Go court some other niches and work on making your overall product better.

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#89

Post by [deleted] »

webwright wrote: post #82
jacquesm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right but in the short term only. I think long term there will be some huge flap involving online privacy and after that people will wake up to what the consequences can be.

Really? What can the consequences be? I'm not being flip-- I think it's easy to say that but its harder to pin down dangerous scenarios. The increasing fact is that the more Google knows about you, the better they can serve up search results (and ads, of course). I think most users would NOT opt-out given the chance to do so (if it meant harming their search quality). Related quote from Matt Cutts' blog: "It’s a long…

[deleted]

Re: Care about search privacy? Duck Duck Go no longer logs IPs.

#90

Post by aresant »

epi0Bauqu wrote: post #32
whatismyip2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an experiment and turned off javascript and redid the test... it still is unique enough to track a browsing session. Give it a try. I would consider using Duck Duck Go if nothing was logged. Right now I use another service precisely because they don't log anything.

I just turned user agents off.

Make sure to update your blog entry !
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