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What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

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Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#81

Post by liviu- »

frogpelt wrote: post #18

Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?

Both arithmetic mean and median are averages, so unless they specify what average they used for the annual income, you may only assume what the author meant.

EDIT: Never mind, the author also says:

>Moreover, we compare median annual values for software engineers with mean annual values for the general population

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#82

Post by pessimizer »

liviu- wrote: post #81
frogpelt wrote: post #18

Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?

Both arithmetic mean and median are averages, so unless they specify what average they used for the annual income, you may only assume what the author meant. EDIT: Never mind, the author also says: >Moreover, we compare median annual values for software engineers with mean annual values for the general population

I'd appreciate a link to anyone, anywhere, at any time, using the word average to refer to the median. The median is the middle, not the average, and often nowhere near the average.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#83

Post by turnip1979 »

Thrymr wrote: post #72
lorenzhs wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_medical_education Doctors have to do 50-80 hours per year of certified continuing education thingies. That's probably way less than the average software engineer, but at least now we have a concrete number :)

That's formal continuing education. I'd like to see the concrete number for software engineers. There is no similar standard for continued training. Sure, software engineers are always learning new things, and many do so intentionally, but my guess is that the average amount of formal continuing education is far less than doctors.

Sorry ... have you seen the quality of continuing ed classes for doctors? Clinic decor 101, computer billing systems 101, sign in your hours at the exit, etc.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#84

Post by pessimizer »

eterm wrote: post #35
frogpelt wrote: post #18

Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?

"average income" as reported is usually the median. Edit: I'm not sure why I'm getting downvotes. Anywhere you read about average incomes from a serious source it'll be the median, no one uses "mean income" for average when dealing with incomes, since the distribution is so skewed. If you even just google "average income" it'll report you the median. Median is so completely standard when reporting on income data that…

We're on the internet, you can link to examples if it is true.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#85

Post by liviu- »

pessimizer wrote: post #82
liviu- wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both arithmetic mean and median are averages, so unless they specify what average they used for the annual income, you may only assume what the author meant. EDIT: Never mind, the author also says: >Moreover, we compare median annual values for software engineers with mean annual values for the general population

I'd appreciate a link to anyone, anywhere, at any time, using the word average to refer to the median. The median is the middle, not the average, and often nowhere near the average.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/mar/25/uk-incomes-how-...

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#87

Post by fecak »

hiram112 wrote: post #55
fecak wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry . Comparing them to software engineers is not a useful comparison.

Doctors and lawyers have created their own barriers to entry via the AMA and Bar Association. Honestly, I don't think I've ever met a decent software engineer that wouldn't have the intelligence to make it through either medical or law school, should they apply themself. OTOH, I've met numerous doctors and lawyers that would never be able to handle the typical high-level math and CS courses a decent undergrad require…

It's not useful to try and debate that one field is more difficult than others. All three fields employ a mix of people with varying intellect. It's also not useful to make silly claims that every decent engineer you know had the intellect to complete medical/law school, or that numerous doctors/lawyers couldn't handle math/CS courses. Unless you're giving aptitude tests to your lawyers and doctors, which I assume you aren't. These claims are highly speculative and sound petty.

Your other comments are more worthy of further thought.

I don't understand why you feel software professionals aren't given respect. Nearly every "Best job" survey on the internet will list it #1 or 2, with several other technical jobs in the top 10. That doesn't necessarily equal respect, but the industry is certainly getting tons of attention and many are trying to enter through any means possible. I'm not sure how we can measure respect or disrespect, but I don't see it.

I know plenty of engineers that are making a good living with plenty of work/life balance that are well beyond 40. I'm sure there are some that aren't as well, but engineers that are mindful of marketability can have a long run in the industry.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#88

Post by ghaff »

eterm wrote: post #35
frogpelt wrote: post #18

Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?

"average income" as reported is usually the median. Edit: I'm not sure why I'm getting downvotes. Anywhere you read about average incomes from a serious source it'll be the median, no one uses "mean income" for average when dealing with incomes, since the distribution is so skewed. If you even just google "average income" it'll report you the median. Median is so completely standard when reporting on income data that…

I didn't downvote you but people probably did because, if all someone says is "average," most people will assume they're talking about the mean absent any other context. Yes, it's a bad measure to use for certain things but lots of bad measures are used in lots of places.

(Now, if a piece talks exclusively and explicitly about medians and then uses a term such as "this average" that's probably OK because they've already stated that median is the only average they're discussing.)

All Google is doing BTW is basically "deciding" that although you asked for average income, what you really wanted is median income because that's what people are looking for. So it basically reworded your query for you.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#89

Post by cookiecaper »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #73
cookiecaper wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need for onerous restrictions they place on admittance. It used to be that you became a lawyer by apprenticing in a lawyer's office and reading the text of the law. That's how lawyers came up for generations until the post-secondary boom in the 1950s. Now, that time-tested method is illegal in all but a small handful of states due to ABA guidelines. Of course, the superficial justification is that if you…

In the modern day the gatekeeping is starting to fail and there's "a metric shitload" of underworked lawyers out there due to the law school glut and wages are collapsing: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2015/05/the-collapsing-e...

Discussion of the counterpoint (click through to original article): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3672815 (I acknowledge this is a couple years older; it's from 2012).

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#90

Post by hiram112 »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #11
glogla wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours, but good pay. So it makes sense to compare them with doctors and lawyers. Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story.

> Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story I see this kind of Rodney Dangerfield sentiment a lot on HN but it has never made a lick of sense to me (especially the "pretty much working class" variety). And also if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery thin…

>if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery things like "professional societies with teeth" and "board/bar certifications" and "codes of ethics" (good luck on that last one).

Not sure why you're down-voted. You're 100% right. Honestly, I really am flabbergasted by a good 50%-75% of the HN community's responses to organizing. This is probably the most intellectual group of people I participate with on the internet.

But the cognitive dissonance when it comes to 'free-market', unions, etc. for our profession is almost sad.

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