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What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

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Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#51

Post by jazzyk »

yread wrote: post #39
TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

> downtime -- the amount of time software engneers spend unemployed (due to economic cycle, startup bankruptcy, downsizing, etc.) funny but from my circle of friends I never heard of anyone being unemployed and looking for job for more than a month. I myself had exactly 0 time of looking for a job in 12 years of working. I'm in Europe, though, we're ridiculously underpaid compared to the US I think. Very few people e…

Off topic, but I must: comparing salaries alone makes no sense. In Europe, you don't have to pay $250K/child for college education, you don't have to pay $20K/year/family in health insurance, etc.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#52

Post by lorenzhs »

turnip1979 wrote: post #21
_yosefk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm... How many people are fed by a combine harvester driver? How many babies and mothers are saved by the staff of a modern hospital, who drastically lower child mortality? If 10 future programmers are delivered by a single nurse, should she be paid 10x what a programmer makes? (Supply and demand I get, "force multiplier" I don't get.)

I think SW engineers have to go through a lot of of specialized training that is short term in nature. Friends in the med field studied a lot to get the job but they hardly have to spend as much time as I do to keep up. I'm only in my mid 30s and a majority of the tech I use was invented after I graduated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_medical_education

Doctors have to do 50-80 hours per year of certified continuing education thingies. That's probably way less than the average software engineer, but at least now we have a concrete number :)

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#55

Post by hiram112 »

fecak wrote: post #38
glogla wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours, but good pay. So it makes sense to compare them with doctors and lawyers. Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story.

Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry . Comparing them to software engineers is not a useful comparison.

Doctors and lawyers have created their own barriers to entry via the AMA and Bar Association. Honestly, I don't think I've ever met a decent software engineer that wouldn't have the intelligence to make it through either medical or law school, should they apply themself. OTOH, I've met numerous doctors and lawyers that would never be able to handle the typical high-level math and CS courses a decent undergrad requires.

I've said this before: there are a lot of 20-something developers on HN that continue to push back against organizing as they're making decent money and in high demand (for the moment), compared to their friends in other professions. The problem is that once a software engineer hits his/her thirties, those professional friends have caught up in salary. We'll still be working in open-office environments with free soda, while they'll have real offices, expense accounts, salaries based on profits, and most importantly, respect.

By late 30's, we've hit the glass ceiling, but doctors, law partners, finance and business pros are just getting started. There are exceptions (e.g. the lucky start-up guys, consultants that own their own shop, etc.), but for the most part, this is reality.

The lack of any sort of organization for our 'profession' is one of the main reasons I'm beginning to look for a new career path. The H1B is a disaster - I actually worked in India for one of the big abusers, and realize that without something, things will get worse, especially since we've probably maxed out this latest bubble.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#56

Post by maxerickson »

emodendroket wrote: post #48
maxerickson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that there's lots of different definitions of classes. Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. In general it's probably more interesting to discuss the various things people use to differentiate roles than it is to argue about what words should be used to describe the roles.

> Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. That's a rather eccentric understanding of "working-class," which typically refers to blue collar workers.

It's not that eccentric. For instance, Marx didn't look just at what the job involved but at the terms of employment. In his terms, programmers making some of the highest salaries are still working class because they are paid a wage by a corporation. A plumber operating a business by would be middle class in the same system (they are working for themselves).

There are ways in which those distinctions are much more interesting than wage levels (which tend to dominate "class" discussion in the US).

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#57

Post by Gratsby »

V-2 wrote: post #9
TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general unemployment in IT is very low, and there's always a shortage of programmers, so job security is clearly above average. (And government administrations have IT departments, too). It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. I'm not buying any of the above…

While there is a segment of autodidacts, it's not like people can become expert software developers overnight.

Software developers work longer hours. I've never been in an environment where developers hang their coats up at 5:00 and go on with their carefree lives.

And while unemployment may be low in IT, developers do not enjoy job security.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#58

Post by Grishnakh »

emodendroket wrote: post #27
glogla wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours, but good pay. So it makes sense to compare them with doctors and lawyers. Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story.

Software engineers are not "working class." Where did you get that idea?

From the number of women interested in dating him, that's where. Women go gaga to date a doctor, but they're about as interested in a software engineer as they are a plumber.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#59

Post by lorenzhs »

jazzyk wrote: post #51
yread wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> downtime -- the amount of time software engneers spend unemployed (due to economic cycle, startup bankruptcy, downsizing, etc.) funny but from my circle of friends I never heard of anyone being unemployed and looking for job for more than a month. I myself had exactly 0 time of looking for a job in 12 years of working. I'm in Europe, though, we're ridiculously underpaid compared to the US I think. Very few people e…

Off topic, but I must: comparing salaries alone makes no sense. In Europe, you don't have to pay $250K/child for college education, you don't have to pay $20K/year/family in health insurance, etc.

Well you need to consider purchasing power parity. In many European countries, these things are paid out of taxes (but also provided at a lower cost in total), so you can't just deduct/ignore them.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#60

Post by joesmo »

The data for Romania is completely incorrect or the OP just fucked up his analysis royally. You're talking about a country where the average national wage is just shy of $500 a month (https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-...) and software engineers are making well over a thousand and sometimes thousands a month. See: http://www.developer.com/daily_news/romanian-developers-earn...

I don't care what numbers or technique he used, it's impossible to come to the conclusion that software engineers in Romania actually make less than the average salary. It's also just plain wrong.

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