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EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

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Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#81

Post by alkonaut »

While I agree with the idea that you should be able to inspect most anything, and not be prohibited from fiddling with anything thats yours, I don't understand how security would be handled?

The software of the car is a component of the car just like any other, and while I can certainly mechanically disable the brakes on my car, it won't be safe for road use if I do (It would never pass an inspection). Since no one could be expected to debug/inspect my software modifications for errors, one would have to assume that any car whose software doesn't match the official one, may be unsafe for road use, and thus can't be allowed on the road?

Also: isn't firmware of this kind pretty hard to read without having access to encryption keys? The petition just wants it to be legal not for the manufacturers to be forced to make it easy?

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#82

Post by robryk »

yasth wrote: post #62
randyrand wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunateyly the software in your 2015 honda civic is nearly or completely identical to all other 2015 honda civics, though. I agree that its unfortunate, but being able to inspect the software in your car is nearly as good as being able to inspect other's or have other's inspect yours if you have the same make and year.

Well there is probably a pretty big difference between the normal civic, the hybrid civic, and the natural gas civic, but I don't think there will be lots of per car model/line differences, just that the inability to contract out things means that modification is limited to technical minded people (and no, artful dodges like "The mechanic will set it up, and the owner can push the button" are unlikely to fly). Also i…

> and no, artful dodges like "The mechanic will set it up, and the owner can push the button" are unlikely to fly

What about selling/renting devices that the owner connects in some obvious way and pushes a button?

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#83

Post by MichaelGG »

VonGuard wrote: post #42
csense wrote: post #40

> EFF also won an exemption for users who want to play video games after the publisher cuts off support. For example, some players may need to modify an old video game so it doesn’t perform a check with an authentication server that has since been shut down I think this is the real story for many HN readers.

Yep. I can answer questions on this if you'd like. I also clarified what's legal in a comment below.

Snarky, but, does "shut down" include when big launch games are overwhelmed or said systems suffer other availability events?

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#84

Post by robryk »

alkonaut wrote: post #81

While I agree with the idea that you should be able to inspect most anything, and not be prohibited from fiddling with anything thats yours, I don't understand how security would be handled? The software of the car is a component of the car just like any other, and while I can certainly mechanically disable the brakes on my car, it won't be safe for road use if I do (It would never pass an inspection). Since no one c…

Well, you can repair your car's mechanical brakes yourself now. If you disable them (accidentally or otherwise) and render the car unsafe, the results of that are your responsibility. Is there a reason why software modifications can't be handled the same way?

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#85

Post by StavrosK »

bcook wrote: post #73
yasth wrote: post #33

It should be noted that this is a very limited ruling. Only the owner can modify the car, and you can't go to a mechanic or third party to modify it (or inspect it), which will greatly restrict the application. Also this doesn't apply to Entertainment or Telemetrics portions. So your car could be straight up spying on you, or your manufacturer can leave unpatched security holes in your "Entertainment" system (which h…

ECU tweakers are already very popular with diesel vehicles. Something like that seems legal even under these restrictions. Buy/rent a device to mod your own vehicle.

Huh, I've never seen those before, and I own a diesel car. Are they worth it? What do the tweakers do that the entire Mercedes crew couldn't?

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#86

Post by jnbiche »

StavrosK wrote: post #85
bcook wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ECU tweakers are already very popular with diesel vehicles. Something like that seems legal even under these restrictions. Buy/rent a device to mod your own vehicle.

Huh, I've never seen those before, and I own a diesel car. Are they worth it? What do the tweakers do that the entire Mercedes crew couldn't?

> What do the tweakers do that the entire Mercedes crew couldn't?

Openly flout emissions standards.

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#87

Post by xg15 »

VonGuard wrote: post #36
Karunamon wrote: post #2

They also got an exemption for modifying of abandoned games whose activation systems are long since gone, as well as extending/clarifying the jailbreaking exemption.

I actually worked on this part of the exemption. It was granted in two parts. First, fans may now reverse engineer and host servers for games that are no longer hosted online. Metal Gear Solid 4 is a perfect example, but there are plenty of others. This is now legal, and considered fair use. MMO's are exempted, and defined as games where the world is persistent reguardless of number of players connected (IE, is the g…

If I understood the ruling correctly, all exemptions are technically only binding for three years, after which they have to be renewed. So in the (hopefully) hypothetical case that the librarian would not renew the excemption for archives, would that make all exibits stored on grounds of the exemption suddenly illegal? If yes, this doesn't seem like a very practical solution to me.

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#88

Post by alkonaut »

robryk wrote: post #84
alkonaut wrote: post #81

While I agree with the idea that you should be able to inspect most anything, and not be prohibited from fiddling with anything thats yours, I don't understand how security would be handled? The software of the car is a component of the car just like any other, and while I can certainly mechanically disable the brakes on my car, it won't be safe for road use if I do (It would never pass an inspection). Since no one c…

Well, you can repair your car's mechanical brakes yourself now. If you disable them (accidentally or otherwise) and render the car unsafe, the results of that are your responsibility. Is there a reason why software modifications can't be handled the same way?

The point of having cars inspected for safety every year or every other year is that their saftey can't be the individuals responsibility only. If you drive without brakes you are dangerous to others.

The simple ocular/mechanical inspection that is used in most places catch obvious problems like rusty brake pipes or bad brake effect. They don't test software issues like whether the stability system is disabled in fifth gear over 50mph due to a buffer overflow.

So while there are similarities between me trying to fix my brakes and me trying to hack the software (Make a change to a car component, if it passes the yearly safety tests it's OK) the software is much harder, or impossible, to test by "external" black box testing that needs to be completed in say 30 minutes by a non software expert.

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#89

Post by xg15 »

robryk wrote: post #84
alkonaut wrote: post #81

While I agree with the idea that you should be able to inspect most anything, and not be prohibited from fiddling with anything thats yours, I don't understand how security would be handled? The software of the car is a component of the car just like any other, and while I can certainly mechanically disable the brakes on my car, it won't be safe for road use if I do (It would never pass an inspection). Since no one c…

Well, you can repair your car's mechanical brakes yourself now. If you disable them (accidentally or otherwise) and render the car unsafe, the results of that are your responsibility. Is there a reason why software modifications can't be handled the same way?

Well, the whole point of car inspections is that "your responsibility" is not enough. It's possible that you as the owner of a modded vehicle are perfectly fine with the risk of an accident, but the other potential participants of such an accident might not.

I think the question has a point: Modified ECUs are different from modified brakes, because the modifications could likely not be found in an inspection - in fact, according to the exemption, it would be illegal for inspectors to check the ECU. So I wonder how that problem is handled.

Re: EFF Wins Petition to Inspect and Modify Car Software

#90

Post by notfoss »

chadzawistowski wrote: post #76
eropple wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time a game hits a bundle the impact on the developer's bottom line is almost negligible. If you want to support developers, buy their games when they come out. Doing otherwise is "nice," but ineffective.

$5 is still $5 if you buy a game after the fact. I don't see how joining early purchasers helps game developers more than otherwise.

If games sell well early into their release, the devs would be elated and motivated. Also they would get more money at the time they are hoping to get it.
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