Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations • Hacker News Board

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#81

Post by Lawtonfogle » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:02 PM UTC

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #15

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

I've gotten the same advice from multiple sources. You don't have to lie to say what salary you're looking for. You also don't have to give your current salary. In the information age, you better be extra careful about bluffing because it's easier every day to call those bluffs.

Or just calculate your total compensation and give that (be sure to call it compensation and not salary).

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#82

Post by SilasX » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:03 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #42

burnallofit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to look myself up, and indeed they don't have my current employer (a small startup). My guess is that only larger employers participate. More importantly, this raises significant privacy issues. How can a current or former employer make sensitive data like salary information easily and publicly accessible, without permission? That ought to be illegal. I agree that it's really wrong to lie about one's salary;…

My take (as it was explained to me by HR) is that currently it's used as a way to let decisionmakers (landlords, bank loan officers, court systems, etc) get verification of employment and/or salary via mutual agreement. You, as the wage-earner, grant an access key to a landlord for example. He then can get quick verification of your application information without wasting HR's time. But I trust the credit bureaus as…

Then why do they require copious documentation of your wages (sorry, salaries) when you apply for a mortgage if they can just look it up?

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#83

Post by asolove » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:05 PM UTC

plesner wrote: post #57

He's right, this post isn't about gloating. It's a story a manager tells himself to justify screwing over his employees. He says that's what he's doing: "I have an engineer working for me who makes $75k, who is absolutely critical to our company". But it's okay because the employee should just swindle him right back, that's what he did right? And if he doesn't then it's kind of his own fault that I'm underpaying him…

Yeah, OP is reading the wrong lesson into this. If his employees aren't bold enough to lie/negotiate a raise, that doesn't mean he gets to pay them less. It means some day they will just walk out and take a higher offer elsewhere rather than experience the pain of playing hardball.

Guess what? Finding new people and training them is expensive. Pay good people what they're worth, work for companies that know what you're worth, and stop playing games for stupid short-term gain.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#84

Post by Lawtonfogle » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:07 PM UTC

burnallofit wrote: post #50

OP's first mistake is only interviewing at 2 companies, which apparently both sucked. OP's second mistake is staying at the same company for so long despite the fact that (a) they have to fight for decent raises (b) the company sucks. Seriously, at the point where there are "serious problems in sales, engineers are leaving en masse", OP doubles down. They are now a highly paid manager in a sucky company. OP's third a…

>and now who knows what else they would lie about. That proves they have no sense of ethics.

Every man whose wife asks 'Does this dress make me look fat?' is going to lie.

No one is perfect; to use this to say they have no sense of ethics is poor reasoning.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#85

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:11 PM UTC

kdamken wrote: post #70

I'm always blown away by how people lowball themselves. See how much you're worth, then ask for more. The worst they can say is no, the best they can say is yes, and somewhere in the middle is still pretty good.

The "see how much you're worth" part is the tricky one. Unless you are directly generating revenue (e.g. in sales), it's hard to quantify what you're worth is to a company, or in the broader market. There doesn't appear to be a credible, accessible source of data out there. However your employer knows what everyone is making, and knows where you stand vs. the average. Employers obviously have a huge advantage from this information asymmetry.

Every time I read someone talking about their salary on HN, it seems astronomically high, but then again it's obviously biased, as the people who are not making as much are not going to brag about it. The same is likely true for crowdsourced sites like Glassdoor where people self-report.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#86

Post by nissimk » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:16 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

There's a wide range of oppinions regarding the counter offer. It's interesting to read some of them if you search on google. One thing many people are not aware of is that as part of your counter offer acceptance you can demand a mandatory severance agreement. This is a contract that says that the company has to pay you if they lay you off shortly after making the counter offer. It's worth asking for, especially if you're concerned about having a huge target painted on your back.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#87

Post by joslin01 » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:21 PM UTC

burnallofit wrote: post #50

OP's first mistake is only interviewing at 2 companies, which apparently both sucked. OP's second mistake is staying at the same company for so long despite the fact that (a) they have to fight for decent raises (b) the company sucks. Seriously, at the point where there are "serious problems in sales, engineers are leaving en masse", OP doubles down. They are now a highly paid manager in a sucky company. OP's third a…

I think the biggest problem with equivocating or lying in general is that you're not truly owning up to your actual situation. OP didn't get offer 70k; he got offered 65k. Maybe that's what he's better worth or maybe he did a poor job interviewing for that job.

Regardless, he got offered 65k and that was his reality. Now instead of owning up to it, he changed it to a nicer sounding number -- 70k. This is where things get interesting. Why not 75k? What's the harm if you're lying anyway? Perhap he didn't think it would be believable because he didn't think he was worth that much. If the employer actually checked his facts, they would have known he was lying and got annoyed. Yet it's fascinating to me that he went for 70k -- a mere 5k more.

OP - I went from making ~100k/yr to 175k/yr because I knew I had the power in the relationship and was probably not tricked by same things you were. I built value in myself and in the work I was doing, and therefore when it came time to negotiate, I shot for the stars and never backed down. I sound about your same age and never had to do it by lying or equivocating or any of these silly games. I did it by building value in myself. This is all you can truly do at the end of the day and then it's about staying firm in what your value is worth. Games will always be games and they are sprinkled with the fairy dust of "5k more" here and another small lie there, but they will never be able to match someone who is truly genuine through and through. These are the types where if they're not worth 70k, they work to make themselves worth 70k (whether thru negotiation or value-building or both). That's the difference and that's why some people don't like to lie.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#88

Post by Bahamut » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

myblake wrote: post #45

Bahamut wrote: post #33

I dislike this greatly, and it doesn't seem like a sustainable path - if the market crashes, and his/her skills don't match the compensation level, then it will backfire greatly & catch up to him/her. I was able to boost my salary to $160k in 2 1/2 years from a starting salary of $50k, but through tireless improvement of my craft (self-studying, experimentation, and contributions to major open source libraries, inclu…

I'm with you that the tactics used here seem a little bit scummy (though I've seen plenty of bullshit from the other side of the table more consistently), but the author does at least claim to also be working hard to improve their craft as well, so I'm not sure your initial concern is really relevant.

The OP didn't feel it was important enough to note strongly as part of negotiating tactics of putting yourself in a strong position to command more, and mainly talked about value he/she generated for his/her employer. My point was about the importance it has on generating value to the market at large in hireability.

I was making it clear that it is an important part of preparing for negotiations by mentioning it to the extent I did.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#89

Post by Kalium » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:23 PM UTC

notNow wrote: post #76

Kalium wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what he's said, it's less that the managers were spineless and more that he made himself very valuable. Personally, I don't see a problem with a mercenary attitude. It's simple, it's clear, and you always know where you stand with a mercenary. It's easy to work with, if you're willing to meet them on their terms. It brings the clarity of a transaction to what is ultimately a transaction anyway.

Nothing wrong with putting you and your family or loved ones first and foremost before anything and I don't believe in loyalty for the company either esp. when it's a one way street where the employee is expected to fawn and suck up to his superiors to show his love and loyalty for the company to get ahead but to adopt a mercenary attitude at the expense of everything else no matter what is very questionable ethicall…

Being mercenary is not even slightly the same as being an egomaniac. Or even being ruthless or selfish. Why are you conflating a series of different traits into one?

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#90

Post by srtjstjsj » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:25 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #82

joezydeco wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take (as it was explained to me by HR) is that currently it's used as a way to let decisionmakers (landlords, bank loan officers, court systems, etc) get verification of employment and/or salary via mutual agreement. You, as the wage-earner, grant an access key to a landlord for example. He then can get quick verification of your application information without wasting HR's time. But I trust the credit bureaus as…

Then why do they require copious documentation of your wages (sorry, salaries) when you apply for a mortgage if they can just look it up?

My mortgage lender asked me for my access code to Work Number.

What shocks me is that Work Number is legally allowed to publish data without the individual's authorization