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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#791

Post by wpietri »

jessaustin wrote: post #743
wpietri wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Jess. I spend time in gay bars too. I also like them, and have never felt uncomfortable there. But elsewhere I was once hit on in a way that made me feel unsafe. It's not fun. I'm glad that hasn't happened to you. But if this particular scenario doesn't help you to understand how you you might feel unsafe in a sexual context, go ahead and make up your own.

I'm sorry that happened to you. Even so, I wish you could see that the scenario you've described is not helpful for many people who are trying to imagine feeling unsafe in the situation the woman describes: a full auditorium, two dorky bearded dudes in a sea of dorky bearded dudes, and the sort of mindless unconscious chatter in which people engage while they're waiting for the windbag conference organizers to get to…

I am not saying she felt unsafe in the moment. I couldn't know, but I agree she probably didn't. (She may have felt unsafe about speaking to them directly about their behavior, though.)

I am saying that one reason we don't make sexual comments in professional contexts is that it can make people feel unsafe.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#792

Post by jacalata »

flyosity wrote: post #724
jasonlotito wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just to be clear, you are boycotting a company that employees someone who upholds the code of conduct agreed to by all attendees of pycon, but make no mention of the company that actually fired the guy. Gotcha.

Actually, she broke the code as well by taking someone's photo without their consent.

I've seen a lot of people say this, but I can't find a reference to it in the code of conduct here: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/. Is there a longer version or different version somewhere, or am I just missing it?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#793

Post by rdl »

ErrantX wrote: post #444
mamoswined wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as "a women in tech" (eeew) I also agree. It's like people don't know the difference between misogyny, which should be unacceptable, and bawdiness, which is a matter of taste. She must be really sheltered. But why did this person's employer fire them? I certainly wouldn't fire anyone for this reason and I would hire someone who made dick jokes for sure.

Really, firing the individual makes sense to me. Pycon does have a code of conduct, which includes avoiding sexualised language. I'm not into the whole big brother idea, but there is such a thing as "time and place" :) and the wrong time and place to make sexualised jokes, is when you are sat in public at a conference with a policy against such things... Reputationally, the company has a right to be both disappointed…

Firing seems like an extreme overreaction at the very least, although if this were part of a pattern of behavior, or if the guy were otherwise marginal, I could understand it (even in cases where I wouldn't agree with it). More severe action might also be warranted if the employer were government or some other special cases where even the hint of sexism were a problem (e.g. a rape crisis center employee or something) -- but not a shitty game monetization company.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#794

Post by mcantelon »

rdtsc wrote: post #555
ajross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's cool down a little here. An irresponsible tweet doesn't really constitute a "personal vendetta" (it's not even personal -- as far as I can tell she never knew their names). And while the post was (apparently, I don't know what the evidence here is) the proximate cause, you really can't say that she "got [him] fired", as she wasn't the employer nor did she advocate for his termination. It's just a bad situation…

Nah, I say let's turn it up a couple of notches. The more I think about it (after a day now), the more I realize this was an opportunity for her to become famous. Think about what does she do -- developer advocate, her site is called "butyouregirl", she does talking engagements. She is a no-name. Have you heard of her before? Doubt it. I haven't. Does the whole tech world know her name now and who she is -- "YES". He…

>The more I think about it (after a day now), the more I realize this was an opportunity for her to become famous.

I think you nailed it. Her post about the incident is strangely long and melodramatic.

"I calculated my next steps." "It very much reminded me of Lord Of the Flies." "Yesterday the future of programming was on the line and I made myself heard."

Re: The PyCon Incident

#795

Post by wpietri »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #733
wpietri wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I've read they talked to each other, not her. You should read her blog, then. > Also I'd like some source for that 1/6 people faces risk of physical assault for their religion. No, it's 1 in 6 women who will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Note the "if" in my statement. My point is that your example doesn't really work, because in the US people don't generally risk assault just for being a parti…

> You should read her blog, then. So should you, since she made it fairly clear that she spoke to someone behind her and to her far left, and then the person next to him began the comments that set off this entire fiasco. I remembered that even without reopening it to read it again, just like I remember you punching all gay people in the stomach elsewhere in this thread by comparing us to rapists. I understand that y…

Regarding who she spoke to, I presume that the guy on the left made his comment on the logging session to the person in the middle, and that she turned around and talked to them as a group. He was certainly talking to somebody, but I agree it's not clear who. Given that the forking joke from the guy in the middle seemed to be related to the guy on the left mentioning forking, I think it's reasonable to see it as one conversation, especially given the angle she would have been at when she turned around.

I agree it's not totally explicit, though, so perhaps they never did notice her.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#796

Post by MikeAmelung »

shardling wrote: post #737
geekam wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are tougher but better ways to deal with the issue (like facing the two men) than to hide behind your twitter followers.

She "hid" by directly notifying the conference organizers through twitter. You can make the claim that it shouldn't have been done in public; you can't exactly also argue that she was hiding.

She was hiding in real life, while being a "badass" on the internet. I think I'm going to open a bait shop myself, and call it "Big Dongles."

Re: The PyCon Incident

#797

Post by wpietri »

camelite wrote: post #772
wpietri wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to hold witnesses and reporters responsible for the consequences of telling the truth. The only person responsible for the speech that was reported are the people speaking. I can't quite understand your last sentence, but if you are looking for people telling women that they are irresponsible for not speaking up, just read the comments on this recent discussion of the Steubenville rape: http:/…

Of course it's fair to hold "witnesses" and "reporters" responsible for the consequence of what they say. The person responsible for the speech that was reported are the people speaking; the person responsible for the reportage of the speech is the person who did the reporting. The former resulted in a woman being uncomfortable while the latter lost a father of three his livelihood. You've got a problem with apposite…

I see. So in your view, she should have inquired how many children he had?

Is she also obligated to consider that in reporting the incident to conference staff? Or mentioning it to a friend? After all, either one of those could also conceivably result in the guy losing his job.

For the record, I should say that I agree that dongle jokes are not rape, and have never said otherwise.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#798

Post by singleuse »

To me this looks a lot like sexism against men. Would she have done the same if this joke had came from a group of women ?

Then it is really inconsiderate and irresponsible to post pictures like this online. In other parts of the world taking this picture would send you to court and with the accompanying comment would most probable send you to jail with a hefty fine.

And now PyCon has officially turned into Soviet PyCon where all attendees should self-censor and be very wary of any woman there. Epic fail at creating a welcoming atmosphere for women and gender equality.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#799

Post by katbyte »

vilda wrote: post #585
rdtsc wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outcome I'd want to see is for both companies and Adria Richards to apologize. I would want him to be offered his job back (but I hope he gets better offers and I wouldn't be shocked if he hasn't already. I would certainly call him up for an interview). If public humiliation is the new modus operandi, then it seems it is a double edged sword. I think her reputation is forever tarnished. Maybe she had good intenti…

My impression is that Adria Richards is not that kind of a person to apologize.

mine to, i also get the impression she is one to overreact and then justify her actions later.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#800

Post by camelite »

niggler wrote: post #136
danilocampos wrote: post #22

Couple pieces to this. First – the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer. Next – let's talk about this red herring of "sexism." Making a phallus joke might be sexist depending on context. Or it might not be. Sexism is not at issue here. The individual in question concedes that they did, in fact, make the joke. From PyCon's code of conduct: "All communication should…

"the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer." Exactly. Let's direct our questions first at the employer. What she did wasn't exactly the coolest thing in the world, but she wasn't the one who fired the guy -- his employer did. I also dont get the sense that she wanted to really punish the guy; rather, she wanted to call out the practice.

This is argument ad vacua (I made that up). That is, if the employer fired the guy was living in vacuum where public relations, sexual harassment suits or the feminist movement's message entire had had no impact whatsoever on their decision, and further posited that employers in general care more about treating their employees with objective fairness than any potential threat to their reputation.... then perhaps you could isolate the fault to the employer. But that's simply not the world we operate in and even then you are discounting the ramifications of being publicly denouncement for anybody else the guy knows or will know in the future. There's plenty of blame to go around.
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