Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#791

Post by shortcake27 » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 6:29 AM UTC

earthling8118 wrote: post #754

shortcake27 wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just need to do your research first. I recently bought a 2001 Corolla with 200k miles. I felt confident because it has a timing chain, no belt to snap. Manual transmission which is bulletproof, just needs a new clutch every now and then. And it’s a a common car so it’s easy and cheap to find spare parts. This era is probably the sweet spot for reliable cars. Post 2010 cars have gotten extremely complicated both m…

What kind of research could you possibly do that will help resolve this? And even if you can is everyone supposed to buy those cars? This only scales for a small amount of peolle. I've exclusively owned vehicles from the time period. They've all been around 120k miles when I got them. They aren't any more reliable than any others. They've all had issues that caused me problems. Some of them have even been incredibly…

> What kind of research could you possibly do that will help resolve this?

You look at all the cars within your budget and rule out red flags, for me it’s timing belts and CVT transmissions. Then Google the rest and look at the common problems.

> And even if you can is everyone supposed to buy those cars? This only scales for a small amount of peolle.

This is no different to anything else in life. People who do their due diligence more often than not end up in better situations. I don’t really understand what your point is here, that no one should do due diligence because it can’t work if everyone does it?

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#792

Post by hgomersall » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 6:49 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #230

hgomersall wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the question that anyone that rejects cars would ask is "why do you choose to live 60km from your work?".

I lived 5 miles away from my downtown office in Chicago. My apartment was 5 minutes from the train and my office was 1 minute on the other side. There were no connections, so this is an ideal public transit situation. It still took 40+ minutes each way versus 20 minutes by car during rush hour or ~10-15 outside of rush hour. This is the third largest US city and one with comparably few major thoroughfares (compared t…

In truth, an environment built for people over cars is better for everyone. Including those that can't drive (which is all children, and many with disabilities) or can't afford to drive. Your case sounds like a perfect situation where a bike with proper cycling infrastructure would be the best option.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#793

Post by Gordonjcp » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 8:35 AM UTC

earthling8118 wrote: post #750

Gordonjcp wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, so what about used cars? The average used car price in the U.S. is now over $28K (KBB). That's more than I've ever paid for any new car I've ever bought! That's more than I've spent on buying, taxing, insuring, MOTing, and repairing every car I have owned since I passed my driving test nearly 30 years ago. We live in an age of ubiquitous information. It has never been easier to learn how to repair things. Why…

It's really easy to have that perspective if you already have the knowledge and wealth to do so. Right now it's winter and there is melted slushy ice everywhere. I only have street parking available where I live. My car is a cheap rusted pile of crap because that's what was affordable. It's not feasible for me to maintain my life while also going out on the street and trying to learn how to fix whatever issue went wr…

> It's really easy to have that perspective if you already have the knowledge and wealth to do so.

This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. A £50 toolkit from the DIY chain of your choice and a couple of Youtube videos will get you started with at least basic maintenance like changing your oil and filters, and replacing brake pads.

> Right now it's winter and there is melted slushy ice everywhere. I only have street parking available where I live.

Yes. It sucks. No way but the hard way. I did a set of head gaskets on one of my Range Rovers during the Beast from the East in the driveway outside my house because I still needed to get to work. They went back on ridiculously clean because of the amount of time I spent inside cleaning them up and defrosting.

It sucks, but that's the way it is.

> It's not feasible for me to maintain my life while also going out on the street and trying to learn how to fix whatever issue went wrong

Yes it is.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#794

Post by bigpeopleareold » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 8:38 AM UTC

wara23arish wrote: post #146

jna_sh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars have always felt more restrictive to me. I don’t want to have to worry about parking or road access or fuel when I’m visiting somewhere.

I have never understood the anxiety americans have related to parking. (unless you’re going to a music festival etc) You literally just drive around for 5ish minutes and you find a spot. Ive lived in two major cities in america fwiw.

I made the mistake of owning a car in Manhattan. I wanted to have it, but having to move the car like 3 times a week was a chore in itself and usually would end up eating up an hour or more trying to find something before giving up and going a bit far just to park it.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#795

Post by tropicalbeach » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 9:31 AM UTC

earthling8118 wrote: post #738

tropicalbeach wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why it's very practical. Lets say you live in the suburbs 30 minutes from downtown. You find a parking lot park your car and just walk wherever from there. At end of the day if your tired and the car is to far just get a lyft back. Sitting on a train or bus with screaming kids and breathing everyones air is not something that enjoyable. I prefer my own car it's more freedom.

Would you still agree if you had to deal with the externalities? Your suburban life is being subsidized heavily by that downtown area. At the end of the day if I'm tired the last thing I want is to get on the road-- I would rather arrive at my destination without putting the cognitive effort in to pay attention to the road

I would say downtown is also subsidized by rural areas that require cars. The food you eat is not grown downtown, factories where the products are made that you use are not made downtown. Downtowns are very artificial and consumer oriented. The entirety of downtown couldn’t even exist with the the people living outside it making the food and products you use. Yet the areas outside downtown could easily exist without downtown.

Cramming as many people tightly packed into small cube apartments in one area so you can build a train or have a bus is highly detrimental to peoples mental health and every study proves this.

Space is important and cars solve this.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#796

Post by sharedptr » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 11:52 AM UTC

lightning19 wrote: post #705

I grew up obsessed with cars, I used to play racing video games almost exclusively, attend car shows etc. I now work for a large german car manufacturer as a SWE. I cannot afford the cheapest car they make, it is literally more than I make in a year before tax. I don't own car yet and I'm not sure I will be able to afford one in the next 3-5 years. I don't even care that I (a former car nut) works for a car manufactu…

Bmw?

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#797

Post by david-gpu » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 12:26 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #228

david-gpu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving my point, because something like 80% of the land in Toronto is zoned for single-family housing. The Toronto metropolitan area is one massive sprawling suburb. How would these numbers look like if we had more dense walkable neighborhoods? No need to speculate, simply look at similar statistics from places like Montreal.

Not everyone wants to live in dense housing. I grew up in Buffalo and spent many many hours on the QEW driving family to/from Pearson Intl. Every ride up there I'd be in awe of the number of cranes in the sky as new (I assumed) residential buildings were going up around Toronto. It seems like high density developments are a thing in the GTA: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/07/gta-communities-worry... and like eve…

> It seems like the people living in the 80% single-family zoned areas of Toronto are not unhappy/inconvenienced enough with the state of things to leave.

How could they be? They externalize all of their noise and traffic to the denser neighbourhoods. And the people living in denser areas are subsidizing the immense amount of roads and public infrastructure consumed by those suburbs. They are having their cake and eating it too.

I may not be able to afford moving to a nicer place, but I can sure complain about it!

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#798

Post by rpastuszak » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 12:50 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #720

rpastuszak wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _in most cases_ I'm in my mid 30s, lived in 5 different countries (incl. UK, Austria, Poland, Portugal) and use a car perhaps 4 times per month (cab, when I'm feeling lazy). Again, I put the emphasis there for a reason: I'm not saying that we don't need cars _at all_. What I'm saying is that we need _much fewer_ cars and there are many people like me. When I need to take a longer trip, I rent a cab. It costs me a f…

You use the word most. But reality is most adults have cars in all those countries. Cars are expensive, if they didn't need one they wouldn't have one. These include countries with very good public transport. Japan, Switzerland etc. You are very much in the minority.

> Cars are expensive, if they didn't need one they wouldn't have one.

I know so many people, even in places like London or Vienna, so with extremely good transport systems, who bought expensive cars because that's what most people in their families do. Sometimes it's a status symbol, sometimes a pattern people fall into due to upbringing. It's similar, although not identical to people in their 20s or 30s owning a TV set yet spending most of their screen time on their phones or laptops.

And, again, this is not a binary issue. The point I'm trying to convey here is that:

1. cars are useful, but

2. it's perfectly plausible to have a _significantly smaller_ amount of cars than we do and it would be a net improvement

3. with improvements in both transport systems (3.1) and _also_ education (3.2, also sic!) we get more people closer to 2.

4. 3.1. and 3.2 can be done in parallel, which means that now, more people than we think _don't_ need cars

We're not there yet but were getting there.

> You are very much in the minority.

Of course, what made you think I implied otherwise? I feel like our discussion started with a big misunderstanding of each other's opinion earlier in the thread.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#799

Post by kubb » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

antiframe wrote: post #304

kubb wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, the car is necessary in some more places. You wouldn't be able to bring groceries, furniture, building materials, tools etc. without it. But whenever I can avoid driving, I prefer to do that.

I buy groceries every week. Several times a week when I want something fresh. There are three shops in walking distance. I don't buy furniture every week. Nor building materials. It's cheaper for me to rent a car for those occasions than to maintain a private car 24/7 for that. Cars being necessary for some tasks does not mean it's necessary to own and garage one they will sit idle most of the time.

The more remote places don't have grocery stores in walking distance. And when you need a car, you might have to bike 20 km to a carshare parking.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#800

Post by jjav » Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 2:33 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #743

jjav wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. Have you compared to how things used to be? These numbers all seem to assume that it used to be much cheaper relative to income. That seems like a rosy look at the past but the numbers don't support that assumption. Yes it would be dumb for a youn…

>But the basic beater cars and new Toyota/Mazda/Honda/Kia-level cars are about as affordable as they ever were. In the past 3 years they've gone up an extraordinary amount, so I have some doubts on that. I was a teenager in the 90s and would help out at a friend of my dads car lot. As a benefit they'd let me get first grab at the 'cheap beaters' that came in the lot, and before I even had a drivers license I had boug…

> In the past 3 years they've gone up an extraordinary amount, so I have some doubts on that.

MSRP for a 2020 Toyota Corolla was $19,600 (these would've been for sale in the fall of 2019, so fully pre-pandemic pricing).

MSRP for a 2023 Toyota Corolla is $21,550. So that's a $1950 increase (~10%) over three years. So it'a noticeable increase for sure, but I wouldn't call it extraordinary given the inflation of recent times.