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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#791

Post by will4274 »

mike00632 wrote: post #124
fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

You know.. I call people their nicknames and preferred pronouns.

But... I have a name like David Goldsmith - common first name, two common syllable last name. People call me Dave, David, Davy, Goldsmith, and this one Indian coworker of mine always seems to call me Goldsith, which I think is cool because star wars, but also like wtf dude, you're missing the same letter every time.

The point is though, I don't really care what people call me. People call me a dozen different things nowadays. The last time I got bothered about what somebody was calling me, I was 12 and it was "Davy dumbsmith".

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#792

Post by GavinMcG »

gentleman11 wrote: post #747
danShumway wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling li…

> What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns The debate is not about whether somebody can use a pronoun. It’s whether everyone else is compelled to use it as well. It’s the difference between positive and negative rights - whether you have the right to compel others to behave a certain way vs whether you have the right to behave a certain way yourself. Legally compelled speech creates a real…

> The debate is not about whether somebody can use a pronoun.

It sort of is, though: someone's use of a pronoun only exists to the extent that others refer to them that way. My pronouns for myself are I/me/mine. Your avoidance of the pronouns I prefer denies me the "use" of those pronouns. I can't use them without your help.

Not disagreeing about the positive/negative rights characterization. And bigger picture: you're right that this really is about respect. Many people want to demand (even if not compel) more attention to mutual respect; many others want to use disrespectfulness as an indicator of their independence, because they view that as a more important value.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#793

Post by kazinator »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

When it comes to issues in which there is a conflict between a small group and some larger group, you can't just brush this aside as only a problem affecting the smaller group.

For instance, there are situations in which transgender rights (someone identifying as a woman using a for-women-only space) are in conflict with women's rights (women not wanting to be in a for-women-only space when whom they perceive as a male is present).

You can't just disregard the women and say, don't worry about it, it's just a 0.6% problem.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#794

Post by neartheplain »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #716
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

If I understand correctly, trans people get beaten to death far out of proportion to their numbers. No, I don't have statistics, but if true you can't just look at the number of trans people to see how serious the problem is.

Here are the numbers:

In 2019, the most recent year for which the FBI has data, the total US homicide rate was 4.3 deaths per 100,000 people [0] (possible underestimate; incident reporting is voluntary, and 25% of police departments don't submit expanded homicide data). Human Rights Campaign recorded the deaths of 25 transgender and gender non-conforming people in 2019 [1]. There are an estimated 1 million people who identify as transgender in the US [2], and an estimated 1.2 million people who identify as nonbinary or gender non-conforming [3]. That produces a US trans and nonbinary homicide rate for 2019 of 1.1 per 100,000.

Of all homicides reported by HRC with transgender or gender non-confirming victims in 2019, just one was determined to involve a clear anti-LGBT motive. HRC's data may be an underestimate. However, it is consistent with their estimated homicide rates and rate of hate crimes reported in other years.

Any murder is a tragedy, hate crimes all the moreso. However, a single-digit number of annual anti-trans and nonbinary murders is thankfully not an epidemic. The overall homicide rate for trans people seems much lower than the national average.

Notably this data excludes assaults, harassment, stalking, or any other attacks which don't result in fatalities.

[0] https://crime-data-explorer.app.cloud.gov/pages/explorer/cri...

[1] https://www.hrc.org/resources/a-national-epidemic-fatal-anti...

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/gender/transgender/index.html

[3] https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/nonbinar...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#795

Post by zarzavat »

caeril wrote: post #302
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

To say nothing of the issue itself, the methods of "trans rights activists" frequently involve intimidation or vigilantism and generally cause a lot of resentment against trans people. People are afraid.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#796

Post by jbay808 »

nrjames wrote: post #518

I worked for a company that hired 4 trans women (out of 7 people total) during a "diversity hiring" push, then touted the diversity of the hires. All of the trans women had been raised and had gone through university as white men, earning comp sci degrees, before transitioning in their mid- to late-twenties. While I do not debate that those individuals represent a type of diversity in the current company makeup, it a…

> it always struck me that they likely received the same privileges that most white males do in technical degree programs.

They also completed those degrees while going through a very intense personal and medical struggle that likely added significant challenges that very few others have faced or would even be aware of.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#797

Post by lhorie »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

I read that trans people suffer from high rates of violence, homelessness, etc. In contrast, amputees and blind people don't usually get kicked out by their parents or randomly stabbed.

If BLM (vs e.g. StopAsianHate) is any indication, the level of outrage in activism seems to be directly correlated to the level of violence in high profile incidents, more so than percentage of affected population

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#798

Post by kaitai »

recursive wrote: post #651
kaitai wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is this ideology that "gender dysphoria = trans" pushed? This is really bizarre -- could you give me some references?

I wouldn't think of it as an ideology. I mean, maybe it is, but it doesn't seem at all bizarre. I'm not really aware of the details, but I'd be hard-pressed to name a difference between the two. I don't (think I) have a position on the issue.

But trans means switching from one side of the binary to the other, while dysphoria means "unease or dissatisfaction" which is not at all the same. One can easily be uneasy or dissatisfied with one's perceived gender identity yet not want to switch to the other side of the binary. What about agender people, or people who just don't like gender at all?

I certainly remember as a teen being unhappy with the constraints gender put on me in social situations but that certainly doesn't mean I'm trans.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#799

Post by dang »

beckman466 wrote: post #786
dang wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27608388 .

> We detached this subthread What does that mean?

Explained here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

More details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27132402

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#800

Post by Mindwipe »

The Economist is not neutral on this - it has numerous editorial staff with a long history of transphobia, and a very vested interest in trying to propagate a general backlash against rights for trans people.

Much of this article is vague - things are "growing" with little evidence to back such assertions up. The reason for that is that they are primarily wishful thinking.

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