Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

axios.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

791–800 of 1001 posts

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#791

Post by OOPMan »

rmah wrote: post #687
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

Most things people say that try to conflate atheism with theism are insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#792

Post by todd_t »

bko wrote: post #170
eloff wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree that religion is the only moral system. If you are not religious you still have a moral system. In the West this had been heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian values, but if you look at countries without that influence you still see a lot of similarities in morals.

I never said its the only one. It's one that has survived over thousands of years. Other places in the East may have their own values imposed outside of the context of religion. But it still exists. The West for all its flaws based on Judeo-Christian values has its merits. For one, a Japanese person would be more likely to be accepted as an American than an American be accepted as a Japanese. Religion isn't perfect,…

"Religion-based" morality is dangerous and it evolves with society. What was acceptable by religion 300-500 years ago isn't acceptable today. And yet, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever? No thanks.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#793

Post by OOPMan »

pkghost wrote: post #784
rmah wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

I could not disagree more. Wallace's use of language here is instructive, poignant, and immensely useFUL. I'll bet you're an engineer, data scientist, or other technical professional, not simply b/c you're here, but b/c your response to Wallace's use of ambiguity and multiple layers of meaning reveals as much about the nature of your own relationship with language, which I'd guess prefers that things should be clear,…

Sounds like the usual post-modern rubbish to me...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#794

Post by pnathan »

kypro wrote: post #244

Although I believe religion is outdated and in many ways I'm happy to see it in decline in the West, I do worry about the side effects the decline of religion has. It seems to me that people my age today (late twenties, early thirties) are extremely self-centred and struggle to see any higher pursuit in life than self-satisfaction. This is in contrast to the few religious people I know who are far more family focused…

Quick note: your sister's story was also common enough in the 1880-1950 timeframe. She'd also have been considered a loose woman, immoral, etc, and come under vicious religious censure. Now, statistically, would that have improved things more generally? I don't know. But it was a thing.

If we were to spin the clock back to pre-industrialization and its concomitant labor crunching, I don't know that period of history quite as well.

While I think the lack of good religious thinking is causing all sorts of odd misfires across society, I'm not sure it would improve "bad choices" though. C.f. canturbury tales...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#795

Post by cmrdporcupine »

baryphonic wrote: post #195
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #46

Having the Church community while growing up was great. But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre. Frankly, growing up in the church left me with a broken moral code. It was only once I left it in my teens and had to work things out for myself that I feel like I could properly ground myself ethically. Having a moral system imposed on you can do that.

> Frankly, growing up in the church left me with a broken moral code. It was only once I left it in my teens and had to work things out for myself that I feel like I could properly ground myself ethically. Having a moral system imposed on you can do that. How did you derive your moral code yourself? Any action you take has side effects in the outside world, and so some minimal, common understanding of morality is nec…

> How did you derive your moral code yourself?

By thinking about it.

I also read a lot of Spinoza.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#796

Post by jumelles »

booleandilemma wrote: post #708
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

I could never take this guy seriously. I mean, he killed himself. Why should we listen to what he has to say?

What a horrible sentiment.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#797

Post by chmod600 »

xtracto wrote: post #328
dagw wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up attending church, and on the whole have nothing but good things to say about the whole experience. It gave me both spiritual and moral support when I needed it the most and some of the best people I have ever known, I got to know through church. In fact in ways I mourn the loss of both my faith and my 'church'. However once I realized that, on a very fundamental level, the core of what they where claiming a…

I was "in touch" with religion for 12 years (my parents sent me to a very catholic school even though both are atheists) My experience was seeing huge amounts of falsehood and hypocrisy as religious people followed and repeated all the rituals of the mass but in the day to day life they just did not care about others and pretty much ignored what their religion taught them. Thank God after those 12 years I saw everyth…

It depends on the religion. Some are just better at applying religious teachings to lifestyle than others.

In my opinion, Catholicism (for all it's good qualities) is too theoretical and abstract. It's easy to walk out of church without any real takaways that you might apply to your ordinary life.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#798

Post by sethammons »

fuzzer37 wrote: post #780
CodeGlitch wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in the 80's (UK) as a Roman Catholic, I remember the services being full on Sunday mornings. Not been since I left home at 18, because frankly I stopped believing in God the same time I stopped believing in Father Christmas (7?). The only reason I went was to make my parents happy. Now I'm in my 40's I do wonder if the lack of religion in society is leading us to a bad place. We know from numerous studies…

> What we are seeing is better rights and fairness for individuals ... is that good for society as a whole Yes. This shouldn't even be a question.

Why should something be excluded from questioning? I think more things should be regularly questioned.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#799

Post by pnathan »

prirun wrote: post #445

I grew up going to a Christian church: Sunday school when I was younger, then youth choir on Wednesday nights, then regular church service for a couple of years in my early teens. I sort of grew out of it as I got older, because as I started thinking about it more, it made less and less sense. For example, I distinctly remember our youth group leader, who was the wife of the minister, saying in one of our classes tha…

You've accepted a literalist & inerrantist frame of the Bible, which is a very new way of reading the Bible. There are more sophisticated atheisms out there. :)

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#800

Post by andagainagain »

mcavoybn wrote: post #789
rmah wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

Given the degree of your outrage, I think something other than "rhetorical technique" has triggered you here. Then again, maybe you are just really really opinionated about "rhetorical techniques" and following strict definitions of words? In that case, you must despise the vast majority of stories and literature because of their metaphors, parables, and subtly different meanings...

This is obviously incorrect. If someone is making an argument then there is a higher bar of what word usage means than stories about santa clause. And using words like "religion" with completely different, fuzzier, less meaningful definitions in order to make a point that doesn't address the topic of religion being discussed is in fact worthless at best. Manipulative and dishonest at worst.
Post reply on HN