Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#781

Post by helge9210 » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:00 PM UTC

numeri wrote: post #249

helge9210 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C1 can be achieved (I did it on 360 hours). C2 is academic level of language proficiency -- you have to either deliberately study for the difficult exam or get an university degree in German. Most of the Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test. When a company sets C2 as a requirement, it can be interpreted as "must have a degree from German University".

> Most Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test That's not true, but it is a commonly shared myth. I've taken and passed C2 with the highest mark in every category (I moved here when I was a young teen, wanted to know if I would pass it after hearing years of people saying things like you're saying). Most Germans would easily pass C2, although I think they'd have to be well-read/possibly university educated to get hig…

Most Germans are not well-read/university educated.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#782

Post by mft_ » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:02 PM UTC

mstaoru wrote: post #760

customguy wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like Germans moving to a poor country and being annoying to the waiter, then going "do you want my money or not?" When it comes to respecting someone -- which is what I'm talking about -- that just makes it worse. > Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy Countries don't have aims or ambitions, people in them do. If…

> accomodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in Do expats in Germany walk around with "I've been in Germany X months" clock on their foreheads? :) Of course you learn eventually... some faster than others. And some not fast enough before "maybe I should just work in Switzerland" kicks in.

The indigenous Swiss have the same attitude; it's just that in the major cities and companies, the concentration of English-speakers is so high, it's not such a problem.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#783

Post by Tarsul » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:07 PM UTC

inigyou wrote: post #708

sva_ wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, things are bad As a German, it sounds like you integrated well.

What's that supposed to mean?

assimilation of German pessimistic tendencies.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#784

Post by wink » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:14 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #498

merb wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most b2 holders can’t even speak German. B1 is not that much better nowadays. You get tons of applications for a job where people struggle with the basics with these and as a small company with only DACH customers it’s most often not worth it

> You get tons of applications for a job where people struggle with the basics with these Any specific examples? I'm a bit surprised because I thought that the German certifications were quite standardized. So I would expect B1 certified people to be able to speak in everyday situations.

Not the person you replied to but they mentioned DACH + customers.

As someone from Bavaria... I have several stories of coworkers who speak and understand decent German but put them on a phone or a in a room with people who speak in a thick German dialect and they will understand 10%. Functionally useless.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#785

Post by Tade0 » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:16 PM UTC

garbawarb wrote: post #351

ogou wrote: post #296

Berlin is one the cheapest capital cities in Europe. As such it attracts a huge amount of immigrants. That low cost is reflected in the pay. An experienced full stack developer would be fortunate to get 90-95k euro annually. That is plenty of money if you intend to stay in Berlin, but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country. Also, housing is a huge problem there and it…

Where do the German coders go though?

The question should be "where did they go?" - to Switzerland, years ago already.

How do I know? I've met them there. My project of close to 40 people was over 80% German. Contractors overall were mainly German as well.

And it makes huge sense - in the German part language is largely the same where it matters and salaries are much better. Also there aren't nearly enough Swiss programmers to fill all the positions.

If I were German, I would be in Zürich right now, admiring its hideous bare concrete 20-21st century architecture.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#786

Post by gib444 » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:20 PM UTC

graemep wrote: post #730

gib444 wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from. Yes it can be very insular and can take many years to even begin being treated like a local (it's not until you have a kid, so I'm told). I'm treated with suspicion too. A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard…

> I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from. Me too, but people have been pretty friendly and welcoming, and i have not been here long. > A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard agree it's strictly xenophobia/racism etc. People in the north seem to make…

And Northerners have real, genuine grievances with the south (ie London/Westminster) and it's not for us to wag our fingers and say they ought to have open arms and love one and all. Understanding is key.

Agree with the bias. They're far less obvious about their issues with race. Eg there are people on my street who, if the local corner shop were the only shop in the country, would sooner starve than spend any money at a business run by a Pakistani family. I frequent it but not much because: most prices are not displayed, things are often out of date, offers are not honoured etc far more than any other shop in the area. (This is of course racism xenophobia etc blah blah to point this out.) When I nicely tried to raise the various issues the whole family turned against me - they take my money but that's it

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#787

Post by imtringued » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:24 PM UTC

delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #413

littlecranky67 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german living in spain, i feel your pain. While I do speak spanish around B1/B2 level, it took a lot of time and effort - probably the biggest effort in learning something after uni. People are often "you should speak the language if you life there" - yes, agreed. BUT: Hell, if you are a professional entrepreneur, you are already not working 40h week but way more. If in your day job you speak english anyway beca…

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice yo…

Why does that matter?

It's honestly absurd to make the case that you don't have time to learn the language of a country you're spending 100% of your day in.

What are you doing all day? The people who are struggling to learn a language tend to be the people who have zero pressure to learn a language.

The most time consuming part of language learning is immersion, meaning that you just listen to or speak the language, without going out of your way to do any language lessons at all.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#788

Post by eldaisfish » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:28 PM UTC

joe_mamba wrote: post #323

eldaisfish wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sad to see this downvoted because it is very much true. European society loves to pretend that they are these progressive, enlightened people. In reality, what they are is just better at hiding their racism and xenophobia. Your last point is largely wrong. The primary difference between immigrants to the US and to Europe is in qualifications. The majority of US immigrants are skilled. The majority of immigrants to Eu…

>In reality, what they are is just better at hiding their racism and xenophobia. It's not xenofobia, it's just a rigid caste system with little to no upward mobility for immigrants, setup for the economic benefit of the locals at the expense of most immigrants. Sweden and others for example has no inheritance taxes so locals inheriting property and assets get a massive leg up at advancing in society with little effor…

I see now why people downvote your comments.

Please, if you do not understand the indian caste system, don't use that term, even in the context of a comparison. This is like comparing a balloon popping to a thermonuclear explosion. The scale, history, and implications are entirely different.

What you are referring to is xenophobia, not a caste system. Xenophobia can manifest in many different ways, only one of which is racism. Are you going to seriously argue that west germans and dutch people are two entirely separate ethnicities? Yet, go to the Netherlands and Hans Muller will likely be treated differently compared to Jan van Assen. The two are almost certainly indistinguishable on the surface but their names give away their origins. This is what you are getting at, but the differences between ethnicities are not sharp, rather they are a smooth continuum. Xenophobia relies heavily on perceptions. Often, differences are difficult to perceive, but sometimes they are, as in the case of Japan which is famously a monoculture.

As a counter to your last point, the UK was and is at the forefront of integrating immigrant groups into mainstream society. Most historical immigrants to the UK are well settled, although there is now a renewed push for racism and xenophobia in politics.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#789

Post by imtringued » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:33 PM UTC

suddenlybananas wrote: post #637

fallingbananna wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less of a basic decency if you're in a country where almost everyone is fluent in English, you get by your life just fine in English, speaking the local language doesn't open new doors, as you're not going to be "native level" speaker no matter how much you study (and many would prefer to speak English with you if you have less than native level of German), learning the local language would take many years of co…

Then leave.

Considering so many people here are feeling extremely strongly about their right to not learn a language and the absurd amount of apathy I honestly see zero goodwill here.

Like, no one is arguing based on personal failure, saying they failed to learn the language. They're saying they are busy raising a family as an adult in a foreign country and learning the locals language is a waste of time.

I'm in such severe disbelief. Like, how can any rational and sane person even think that?

How can you decide to go to a foreign country and then decide that actually all of that country is bad including the language and say you're above the locals and their stupid language and then expect to be considered a welcome guest?

Obviously the host wants the unwanted guests to leave.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#790

Post by simianwords » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 1:36 PM UTC

dofm wrote: post #768

simianwords wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But like... no one claims there's some essentialist and typological race. Everyone knows that it is lossy but a real category. Whom are you attacking here? Any educated person knows that there's no one to one mapping between DNA and how the word "Asian" is used. There's a good predictive power for DNA and a high correlation. But that's how language works. Between a "hill" and a "mountain", there's no concrete boundar…

> Advice: don't create this strawman. Argue against the real thing: race is a category albeit a fuzzy one that humans use through language and this category has a biological basis. Advice: the above is essentially indistinguishable from the false scientific argumentation that white supremacists use to make their case. It has no meaningful basis in science.

> Advice: the above is essentially indistinguishable from the false scientific argumentation that white supremacists use to make their case

Wow. You make things worse by calling people who think race is a fuzzy category white supremacists. This kinda thing is part of the problem. Please reconsider - its childish and everyone can see through this.