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DeepSeek v4

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Re: DeepSeek v4

#781
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim that APIs are subsidized is very common. eg: Token prices are significantly subsidized and anyone that does any serious work with AI can tell you this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47684887 (the claims don't make any sense, but they are widely held)

I’ll note that it’s common and dangerous , in that there’s a generation of engineers who are at risk of leading each-other astray as to the economics and therefore probability distribution of outcomes for some firms that will massively impact their careers. I think I understand the major reasons for this meme, but I find it really worrying; there were lots of incorrect ‘it’s a bubble’ conversations here in 2012-2015,…

People shouldn't be quitting the industry, agreed. There's plenty of work to do even with AI assistance.

But how is that a counterpoint to tokens being subsidized? They obviously are subsidized, this just isn't arguable at all. The claims in the linked post make perfect sense. If they weren't subsidized the investors in AI labs would all be minting money instead of burning it.

It doesn't matter if token value is increasing. What matters is how fast it increases relative to the price increases, the repayments on the debt loads and other things we can't really know here on this forum.

Every attempt I've seen to argue this fact away is merely playing with numbers e.g. excluding every cost except inf hardware+energy, even though labs are always training and have large costs outside of compute. This might or might not be a good way to predict the future of these orgs, but it doesn't help anyone argue inference is profitable today (because inference is literally the only thing OpenAI/Anthropic sell and they lose money).

The whole computing industry is in a super weird place right now that feels temporary, like Wile E. Coyote spinning his legs suspended in mid air. Until the economics of the AI industry stop being driven by FOMO and weird, hard to interpret quasi-religious or geopolitical motivations, it's impossible to make accurate predictions about what the impact on software jobs will be. Historically a tech like this would have started at super-high prices and the token cost would have gradually fallen over a period of decades, giving people plenty of time to adapt. Look at the cost of flying, desktop computers, mobile phones, etc. AI is attempting to short circuit that normal technological path and pack decades into years by convincing capital holders that they have no choice but to "invest" because it'll be a winner-takes-all repeat of web search and social media. Yet it's not shaping up that way.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#782
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it an illuminating experience about the power of mass propaganda every time I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China, despite starting a new war somewhere around the globe either for petrol or on behalf of Israel every six months.

Many of us (worldwide, I'm not American) watched China massacre thousands of its own children at Tiananmen Square. The US is descending into totalitarianism, but it hasn't reached that level yet. And China may have changed in some ways but there have been no signals it would not repeat that event if it thought circumstances warranted.

Tiananmen Square was obviously horrible but not even 10% as bad as the current war against Iran or 1% bad as the Second Gulf War, and those are both very recent conflicts.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit I'm here for it to be honest, I'm tired of America with everything that's going on. China is not perfect but a bit of competition is healthy and needed

I don’t know if we’re ahead of the curve but that tired feeling has started turning into hate here in the EU. I guess being threatened with invasion does that to you. The next decade is going to look very different with America Alone.

yup. I was taught in school in Europe to admire Americans and their might. Only in the last few years I've come to understand they are maybe one of the worst western countries there is. Countless wars, even under Obama, so it's not a president x or y thing. It's culcture. I would go as far as to say I'd rather visit Russia than America at this point. America is great at hiding their true colors and we've been properly brainwashed in the West by this.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#784

It's easy to praise Deepseek for its results and generosity -- how they can keep up with frontier labs on Huawei chips for a fraction of the cost! -- but let's not forget a big part of their toolkit is heavy distillation of SoTA.

Let's also not forget SoTA models stole from us.

Literally.

Altman and Amodei are so mad about muhh model when they steal our data and pollute the Internet with slop.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and they're being tried in a federal court of law for it. NYT v. OpenAI is still very much alive, these things just take a while. Can the same be said about DeepSeek or any other open-source model provider performing distillation?

Pandora's box has already been opened and there is no going back. I doubt OpenAI, et al will get anything but a slap on the wrist in court because punishing AI companies would have a negative effect on the US economy. >Can the same be said about DeepSeek or any other open-source model provider performing distillation? Open source models that distill from SoTA reminds me of the story of Robin Hood -- robbing the rich…

Robin Hood, famous for spinning his acts into a $220M ARR SaaS business (as of mid 2025 [0], likely >$1B by now) and using charity as a marketing mechanism.

[0] https://sqmagazine.co.uk/deepseek-ai-statistics/

Re: DeepSeek v4

#787
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it an illuminating experience about the power of mass propaganda every time I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China, despite starting a new war somewhere around the globe either for petrol or on behalf of Israel every six months.

Many of us (worldwide, I'm not American) watched China massacre thousands of its own children at Tiananmen Square. The US is descending into totalitarianism, but it hasn't reached that level yet. And China may have changed in some ways but there have been no signals it would not repeat that event if it thought circumstances warranted.

> no signals it would not repeat that event

Of course there is, there's anti riot gear now when there wasn't before.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#788
Objective, detailed benchmark results at https://gertlabs.com

Early takeaways: from this release, DeepSeek V4 Flash is the model to pay attention to here. It's cheap, effective, and REALLY fast.

The Pro model is slow, not much better in coding reasoning so far when it works, and honestly too unreliable and rate limited to be of much use, currently. Hopefully that improves as new providers host the model. Flash is working fine, and is currently performing competitively with recent releases, but only on agentic workflows. Check back in 24 hours for full combined scoring with tool use and long context for both models.

Many of the frontier Chinese AI labs have released near-frontier models that are just a little bit behind Opus 4.6 in terms of speed, tool use ability, or long context handling. Open weights are winning the AI race, led by China. Crazy couple weeks of releases.

Mimo V2.5 Pro by Xiaomi (not open weights) is actually the best performer of the latest string of Chinese releases in our combined, comprehensive benchmarks, despite getting less attention. Kimi K2.6 is the most interesting open weights release, still. DeepSeek is not the leader in the space anymore.

An interesting pattern with the latest string of Chinese releases is the much better agentic boost (models are not as smart out of the box, but their ability to iterate in a loop with tools makes up most of the difference). Deepseek V4 Flash exemplifying this -- not a smart model on the first try, but it makes up for it over the course of a session.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#789
post #9

I’m deeply interested and invested in the field but I could really use a support group for people burnt out from trying to keep up with everything. I feel like we’ve already long since passed the point where we need AI to help us keep up with advancements in AI.

Don't keep up. Much like with news, you'll know when you need to know, because someone else will tell you first.

This one’s been particularly hard to sit out because the executive and managerial class are absolutely mainlining this stuff and pushing it hard on the rest of the organization, and so whether or not I want to keep up, I need to, because my job is to actually make stuff work and this stuff is a borderline existential risk to the quality of the systems I’m responsible for and rely on.
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