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Honda is killing its EVs

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Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#781

Post by deaux »

jdlshore wrote: post #301
ourmandave wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've pumped the brakes pretty hard by cutting EPA standards, subsidizing coal, suing to stop wind and solar projects, cutting green energy grants by $8B, yoinking solar tax credits, trying to rewrite the Clean Air Act to block states from regulating emissions, shield Big Oil from litigation for climate deception, and repeating Big Oil's lies and disinformation.

The economics are against them nonetheless. Solar + battery is seeing massive rollouts.

Those rollouts are seeing massive cutbacks from what I've read, as half the country is straight up banning new solar. Good luck ever getting that off the books.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#782

Post by chrsw »

neya wrote: post #453
rkagerer wrote: post #308

Honda is setting itself up for failure on the second disruption sweeping the automotive industry: the software-defined vehicle (SDV), which has core capabilities that can be upgraded and improved over time. No thank you. Not sure why the author frames this as a good thing. They've been bamboozled by the automakers and have got it backwards - you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled,…

Most people including the author think more software = premium/better. But as software engineers, we know better. That's not the case at all. More software = more control by everyone else except you. Manufacturers. Governments. For this reason, I always avoid cars with big flashy LCD screens that are central to controlling the cars accessories like sunroof, AC and other electricals. The other issue is support. So man…

It doesn't have to be that way though. There's a bigger scam in the tech industry in general that says the path we're on is the only path we can be on.

More software doesn't have to mean less value for the customer. More software doesn't have to mean your tools and devices are spyware machines. That's just the lie we've been told.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#783

Post by panick21_ »

chii wrote: post #498
slg wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how many complaints I see on HN that are framed as if they're complaints about a specific piece of technology when they are really complaints about capitalism. I'm all ears if you want to criticize our entire economic system, but I think it's silly to have that conversation specifically in the context of car software rather than at a societal level.

> when they are really complaints about capitalism it's not a complaint about capitalism. It's a complaint about asymmetric bargaining power in the seller/buyer relationship. That's not inherent in capitalism. It's inherent in an anti-competitive market. The failure is in gov't making sure there's sufficient regulation to prevent monopolistic practises.

Perfect symmetry in bargaining power is systematically impossible. Not having perfect symmetry does not mean its anti-competitive.

The facts are, most people don't mind software in their car an like live-updates.

And nothing about software in cars or cars is monopolistic in any way.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#784

Post by goshx »

angry_octet wrote: post #678
simondotau wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your sentiment, and I agree with you in the hypothetical universe I think you’re imagining. But in this universe, that ship has long since sailed. Cars are software. They have been so for a long time. The only difference between a Tesla and an economy car from Stellantis is whether the software is well written or not. My wife has a 2015 Jeep Cherokee. For its purpose It’s actually quite a nice vehicle, s…

I'm afraid it's exactly the opposite -- Tesla has awful software, and no self discipline about adding more bloat. There is a lot of rigorously designed software in cars where you can't see it. Jeep is no one's idea of quality in any respect though. Legacy brands do significantly improve software as the model evolves, and provide firmware updates to earlier models. The best car is probably the last one before a new pl…

> Tesla has awful software

Tell me you have zero experience with a Tesla without telling me you have zero experience with a Tesla

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#785

Post by panick21_ »

sham1 wrote: post #643
dalmo3 wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because enshittification wouldn't happen in a centrally-planned economy? What's the basis of this?

This feels to me like a false dichotomy. The only alternative to the current way of doing things isn't a planned command economy, no matter what "libertarians" or tankies might argue.

Then explain how it would work exactly.

Anything other then capitalism with slightly more regulation is just going from the US to Germany. Great, but they have software updates on cars too.

If you want to change anything more fundamental, you are going to have to do a planned economy.

At best you can say, maybe could be slightly better Germany by having a better political process or something. But even then, software updates in your car are going to be a reality because it solves are problem for manufactures, saves consumers lots of time in many cases and generally the positives outway the negatives.

I bet you 100% that in any planned economy OTA updates would still happen.

At best we can argue for some better practice about OTA Updates in regards to security and functionality. Maybe forcing manufactures to have a 'security only' feed an a 'feature feed'.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#786

Post by panick21_ »

adrian_b wrote: post #722
beeflet wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do personal computers even really emerge under communism? it is yet to be seen. But this specific technology seems to only evolve under capitalism to suit the needs of a certain type of buisness against the consumer. If it emerged under communism, it probably would be equally as bad. I imagine if it emerged under communism or socialism it would be designed to solve a similar problems: securing the needs of the state…

There is no such thing as a communist economy. The economies of all countries that claimed to be socialist or communist were the extreme form of monopolistic capitalism. Because nowadays the economy of USA resembles more and more every year to that of the socialist countries from the past, a non-negligible risk has appeared for the personal computer to become an endangered species. The prices of personal computers an…

Ah the old 'No true Scotsman' argument. Except of course that the centrally planned economies like the Soviet Union were exactly what socialists before WW1 demanded. And what they tried to implement.

If the Soivet Union and friends were not Communist/Socialist then a communist economy simply doesn't exist, and has never existed and we see 0 reason why it would ever exists. And its not even clear what it would be or how it would work. So its completely and utterly irrelevant for any debate in the real world.

Its only in circular marxist self-mastrobation logic to redefine Soviet Union as 'monopolistic capitalism'.

> The prices of personal computers and of their components have been increasing steadily during the last decade

Not in terms of actual performance ...

Maybe for Graphics cards, but at the same time, those graphics cards can do things now they could not before so they gained in value.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#787

Post by johnisgood »

neya wrote: post #733
carefree-bob wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the issue of longevity. Most people don't expect 20 year old laptops to keep working, but they expect 20 year old cars to keep working. The software defined vehicle is a disposable vehicle, and that means it better be cheap or someone is taking a depreciation bath.

That's because cars are fundamentally hardware products, not software products. Yes, software powers the heart of it (ECU), but it is just another "part" in a million other parts, not the main central selling point of the car. So, if I buy an expensive hardware product for something that can significantly alter my net worth, it is not unreasonable to expect it to last a few decades. The analogy for this would be the…

And because we know cars do not have to have all that crappy software. We have cars lasting decades without it.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#788

Post by kvuj »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #416
gorfian_robot wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently drove a brand new Toyota EV. It was ... fine. But I wouldn't buy it. Kia/Hyundai make the best EV's for the US right now.

Doesn't that describe most Toyotas, EV or not? You buy a Toyota because you expect it to last forever (or because it has low running costs because it has great resale value because it lasts forever). You want a Supra to drive much better than fine. But if you're in the market for a Corolla, "fine" might be better than some of the cars you're comparing against.

That used to be the case, but modern Toyotas have a lot of problems with their engines. This doesn't inspire confidence in the brand's overall quality.

Add the fact that EVs are a lot simpler, and I don't really see the reasons to pay the Toyota premium. Perhaps less depreciation?

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#789

Post by [deleted] »

SayThatSh wrote: post #774

As much as I love tech in my cars, I’ve found that the more you add, the more will eventually fail. If you really must integrate more software, make it free and guarantee X years of support. If that means a more expensive car, so be it let the market decide if it’s worthwhile. Subscriptions hide the cost and inflate the popularity of vehicles that otherwise may not have been purchased.

[deleted]

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#790

Post by panick21_ »

rkagerer wrote: post #521
slg wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. This is very much not what "software-defined vehicle" means which itself is very much not the same thing as EVs. It's possible to criticize the explotative business practices you mentioned (or bad UI practices like moving everything to a touchscreen instead of physical buttons) without linking th…

cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment Haed disagree. You've been bamboozled, too. Recalls of any kind are a signal to me the vehicle shipped half-baked. I'd rather have the car with slightly older features that took a little longer to release, but got it right before leaving the facto…

The reality is, and this is just a fact that all cars have recalls. And currently there are already lots of recalls that require software. Now you just have to go to the dealship.

At best you could argue, maybe the software is better because a bug is more expensive to fix. But that can also lead to low risk bugs not being fixed.

Either way, the solution is not to prevent update, but make the cost higher for companies if their software or their update causes anything safety critical to be wrong.

Regulation around having a separate update for security critical things might be reasonable on government level. But usually the update is not forced in if its mostly features.

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