I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now • Hacker News Board

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#781

Post by pimlottc » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:46 PM UTC

I find it odd that the author equates "cool stuff to work on" with "cool tech". As I have gotten older, I have become less interested in specific technology and more interested in what that technology enables. There's a big reckoning going over the effects that big tech has had on our society, and engineers are not immune from this. A lot of us are interested in more than cool new languages, hot new frameworks, and massive scale deployments.

The author touches on this a bit, mentioning Elon Musk and Tesla/SpaceX, but focuses more on cool products like rockets and self-driving cars and not about, say, the future of humanity in space, or reshaping personal transportation. These are the kinds of impacts that really matter: What is the company actually doing for its users? Does it solve a real problem? Is society better off because of it?

Start by addressing these concerns and I will be much more interesting in working for your company.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#782

Post by codethief » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:46 PM UTC

janandonly wrote: post #557

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forecasting your spending rate far enough into the future, however, is a very tricky problem if you're trying to retire at 30, especially if you're living through turbulent times. I'd rather work 3 days a week until I'm dead then let my skills start deteriorating now and live the next 60 years in fear that my fixed income won't be able to sustain me.

As someone who's been working for +10 years now for 3 day's a week I can say: spot on! I've got savings enough for fun projects or holiday's, and my 3 day job simply pays the rent/gas/electricity bills.

If I may ask, what work do you do / what company do you work for that allows you to only work 3 days a week?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#783

Post by pixl97 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:47 PM UTC

metafunctor wrote: post #666

jlkuester7 wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. This %100. Automate all the things, but for any part of the process that cannot be automated/scripted, write it down. And don't jus…

Even if it's all documented with a README, with container images and Ansible playbooks or whatever to make it all happen… still people will be complaining that it's oh so complex and that's not how we did it in my previous job and what about secret management, or load scaling, or full disk encryption, or how would this be deployed to a moon-based server, or whatever they can think of how the probably less-than-averag…

I will say that things like secret management and FDE are likely policies that people are forced to follow and not things they directly want to implement.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#784

Post by irthomasthomas » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:47 PM UTC

What I want to know is what happened to these people of The Quittening? Did they die of covid or stress (all-cause mortality is up 40% in some places)?. Or did they just retire, or went self employed? People don't just quit from a 6 figure salary and vanish.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#785

Post by froggertoaster » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:52 PM UTC

It's hard to take someone seriously when they won't even type out Elon.

What is he now, He-who-shall-not-be-named?

> (I ain’t speakin’ his name; the dude gets enough press without me helping his SEO.)

I hope this comment was tongue-in-cheek. This person's SEO comparatively speaking does not even register.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#786

Post by daemin » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #458

pjmlp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

>30 paid holidays I'm always angered by these over-generalizations for the whole of Europe. Europe is not a single country with identical laws and working conditions but they differ wildly by borders. The minimum amount of vacation days by EU law is 20 per year for every full-time worker in the EU but workers can get more based on union negotiations of each individual country or individual company perks that wish to…

Just to add some information for Poland.

The standard is 20 days of holidays, although if you've been in the workforce for long enough (I think it's 10 years) or completed tertiary studies and worked for a few less years you'll get 26 days of holidays each year.

There is paid overtime with a maximum number of days and hours that you can work per year. Though in my industry some people end up chewing through that within the first few months. Things are better in this company for now.

As far as job hopping on the resume, I think the optimal thing to do is to hop every few years, but I don't see that as a negative.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#787

Post by decafninja » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #615

michaelt wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some jobs, higher salaries correlate with worse working conditions. The warehouse worker who moves from day shift to night shift, or the oil worker who moves from onshore to oil rig work, can demand a higher salary. But more broadly, higher salaries correlate with better working conditions. That warehouse worker will have targets to hit every single shift, get in trouble for being five minutes late, will get writ…

That's true, but my impression is that many of those super high-paying jobs in the US expect 60-80 hour work weeks. That's a pretty hefty sacrifice. If you can also get those salaries on a 36 hour work week, then that's definitely better.

A lot of Google engineers seem to report working no more than 40h/w on average.

Amazon is obviously notorious. Facebook also seems to involve longer hours. Can't speak for Apple. My friend at Netflix reports working 40h/w on average as well.

I would argue that hours/week and salary are not necessarily directly correlated in the Silicon Valley tech companies.

Personally my most arduous job (50-60+h/w at a Korean conglomerate) was also the least paying (starting salary $35k, left after five years making $60k).

That said, while everyone's circumstances and desires are different, I would say typical quality of life making $300-500k at an above average 50h/w is arguably better than making <$100k USD equivalent at 35h/w even if you include all the European country social benefits. At some point an absurdly high compensation sort of lets you steamroll and acquire those benefits for yourself privately if you want them.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#788

Post by csunbird » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

mwigdahl wrote: post #776

csunbird wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post really strikes me as ignorant. Most of the developers stay around 2 years in a company, because the companies usually do not make market price adjustments to the salaries and you start to lag behind if you stay too long. For example, after 2.5 years, I am looking for a new job, as the company is simply refusing to make adjustments based on the market prices, even after a promotion, I am making 20 percent le…

That's a pretty harsh categorization. I am a hiring manager at my company and I echo GP's thoughts almost exactly. An extended history of 2-year engagements is not necessarily a dealbreaker, but it requires explanation. The hiring and onboarding process is arduous enough without having to repeat it every two years for every position. I get what you're saying about the salaries -- our company just recently started a p…

I have discussed this with my team leader, but, unfortunately, my company's HR/People organization do not believe in opening up Pandora's box by increasing salaries.

The discussions with my team leader/manager has been going on for more than 6 months now, and it always hit up the same wall: The salary bands are inflexible and the short sighted approach of "making an offer after the employee puts their notice in" culture continues. The HR team believes that (as this is what they have been doing pre-COVID), they can just import people below the market value abroad and replace the people asking for more salaries, although this is just a false notion right now, and they are having extreme problems with hiring.

> You could, as just one example, strongly care about the mission of the organization and/or the work that you are doing. People do work at nonprofits despite their generally lower salaries.

Yes, but this is something that needs to be explained to the hiring manager. Leaving after 2.5-3 years are now the norm, and staying for 10 years is now an outlier, unlike what the GP trying to picture 2 years stays as red flags. I do not feel pressured to explain why I want to leave the company, mostly what I am being asked is what I am looking for in the new company.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#789

Post by throw28923 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

I'm "fully remote" but apparently I can't work from any country despite being a contractor (so responsible for my own tax). Give me a job paying 15-20% more than I'm on where "fully remote" means I can work from abroard and I'll consider whether it's worth my time. Better the devil you know, since my current gig isn't exactly stressful.

#remote should mean remote

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#790

Post by fuzzer37 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

Mezzie wrote: post #698

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

Good luck convincing organizations to invest in this + finding people to do it. I have the background to organize this (I'm actually doing this for my own, smaller organization right now just because the situation is driving me insane) and the main problems are: 1.) The people who can do this aren't going to do it for 30k or $10/hr. Properly solving this problem requires an understanding of tech and the development p…

Can I ask how you got started in the field of instructional design? This is a field that I've not really heard much about until recently, and I'm curious how someone breaks into that field.