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Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

bleepingcomputer.com

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Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the tactics Nissan ran into big trouble with was their extreme reliance on fleet sales. Fleet sales juiced the profits but killed the used market, thus pushing Nissan's cars down market thanks to reduced resale value. This was an active criticism by investors and journalists during the Nissan down turn. Meanwhile Toyota is able to charge a meaningful premium because their cars retain value. So I do think it is…

You came sooooo close to hitting the nail on the head. The first owners have a huge effect on a resale value of a vehicle. Who buys Toyotas? Why are those people's cars more valuable on the used market than corporate fleet's used cars? Now see if your model explains the used value of a Dodge Journey, oilfield pickup and whatever car grandma owned. Nissan spend the '00s selling to owners who's used cars are not held i…

There's also material differences, there's a reason the Nissan CEO from that era is currently a fugitive and on trial for financial misconduct.

And not by some technicality either, he literally hired a paramilitary group to disguise themselves as musicians and smuggle him out of Japan while on bail.

Since 2001 Nissan has used their defective CVT transmission in the vast majority of their lineup from the compact Versa to the Pathfinder SUV (aside from the sports cars and pickup trucks).

The average time to failure depends slightly on the model, but it's often around 60-70k miles.

The cost to replace it is typically most if not more than the value of a typical Nissan.

Because they were selling defective cars, their buyers dried up, so they had to resort to buyers with sub-prime credit. At this point it's joked the Nissan Altima is the official car of bad credit or bad neighbourhoods.

While the poor upkeep by the sub-prime owners certainly doesn't help, the poor resale value is largely due to everyone knowing they are ticking time bombs.

I've shopped for many different used 10-15 year old cars, and through my research have found the used market is extremely accurate in pricing in expected upkeep or failures, even among different variants of the same model from the same brand.

When I wanted an W211 E-class Mercedes (2003-2009), I researched the common failures and the cost to repair. I found the whole range was actually priced pretty similarly once you factored that in.

There were major defects in the 2003-2004 models which would cost around $2500 to fix. The 2005+ models were worth about $2500 more than a 2004 (despite only being worth $5000 and $7500)

The E500 had an air suspension failure issue which would be around $2000 to remedy, the same model year E320 with normal suspension was worth $2000 more. And for 2003-2004 they were only worth $3000 and $5000 respectively.

After months of browsing craigslist and test drives, it was clear it didn't matter which model or year I bought, a Mercedes W211 E-class was going to cost me $7500.

At that point I figured I'd just keep saving and get a Lexus 2IS for $10,000 as it was much better value despite the difference in owner reputation.

tldr: The used market knows exactly what a car is worth regardless of owner reputation. Nissans are worthless because they're shit cars.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#782
post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the energy used in crypto mining to be a crime against humanity and support reasonable efforts to curtail it. Until we price in the externalities of using fossil fuel energy, no one should be wasting energy on this scale for such a spectacularly nonessential purpose.

Nonsense for you maybe, would you call flight travel, cruises crimes against humanity?

Air travel and cruises provide unique and tangible benefits.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the same boat, however, it's a bit unclear if parent is complaining [also] about their open source support. Their antagonistic position towards open source (AFAIK there's no comparison to AMD Nvidia open source drives) is a big issue for me.

> about their open source support. Which support? They have an official closed-source driver. That's what they support. Parent is complaining that when they run an unsupported third-party driver, it doesn't work as well as the actually supported driver. I think these distinctions are important, becaues NVIDIA is not telling anyone that they have (1) an open source driver, and (2) that this driver is well supported. T…

> I think these distinctions are important, becaues NVIDIA is not telling anyone that they have (1) an open source driver, and (2) that this driver is well supported.

this is not correct. this is an extract from an nvidia presentation:

> We'll report up-to-the-minute developments on NVIDIA's status and activities, and possibly (depending on last-minute developments) a few future plans and directions, regarding our contributions to Linux kernel; supporting Nouveau (the open source kernel driver for NVIDIA GPUs, that is in the Linux kernel), including signed firmware behavior, documentation, and patches; and NVIDIA kernel drivers.

Now, even putting this aside, the situation is not so black-and-white.

I wasn't able to boot Ubuntu with my latest Nvidia card. The closed-source driver can work perfectly, but it doesn't boot a Ubuntu image. I don't remember the details, but I think rebuilding the image with closed-source drivers didn't produce a functioning system, and if memory serves me well, I had to go as far as booting with another card.

Therefore, a closed-source only approach does actively damage the open source world in a concrete way.

Second, the nv driver story (obfuscating the code) is really deplorable, and there's no excuse for being explicitly antagonistic.

All in all, I think that being fiercely closed-source (they'd be good friends with the GNOME devs...) in a open source world, can't avoid doing concrete damage.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#784
post #470
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the point: the point is that Nvidia want to still have regular customers who, when they think "I need a gaming rig" think "Nvidia". If Nvidia becomes "GPUs are cryptominers", then once demand dries up, their marketshare is zilch, and no one's writing games optimized for Nvidia cards anymore, and there's a big pile of bugs they've not fixed with new games trying to use Nvidia cards.

Even worse, consoles aren't having these availability problems. If you buy a console, and you start building a games library, making friends who you play with on a daily basis (and you usually cannot crossplay between consoles and PC due to skill differences between controller/m+kb, sometimes it works with a controller on PC but most of the time it doesn't) then you are now locked into that ecosystem. You aren't buyi…

> Even worse, consoles aren't having these availability problems.

Have you tried buying a PS5 lately?

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the missing factor here is that mining groups are sort of like neo-feudalists. If crypto ends up becoming the de facto world currency, then mining groups that are already wealthy purchasing all available stock of GPUs to mine and further enrich themselves is sort of like if 70% of land was owned by wealthy nobles, and they used the profits from their land ownership to purchase all new land-producing/discoveri…

> 70% of land was owned by wealthy nobles, and they used the profits from their land ownership to purchase all new land-producing/discovering capital and therefore become the owners of all new land coming onto the market So, basically, like REITs? It's funny that graphics card feature sets are what generate moral outrage when a feudal regression happening in real time before our very eyes in regards to the basic nece…

It's a lot easier to cripple graphics cards than it is to do anything political

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work. It's unenforceable without the government to enforce it, and even then people will skirt it. Rules constraining how a market functions often don't work or have unintended consequences. The only real solution is to attack supply and/or demand. A rule limiting how many a person can buy doesn't actually affect demand, it just affects that market's ability to respond to demand. You get people that circum…

> It doesn't work. It's unenforceable without the government to enforce it, and even then people will skirt it. Okay, but when I said "dropping" I wasn't talking about a rule, I was using that to demonstrate the problem. > A rule limiting how many a person can buy doesn't actually affect demand, it just affects that market's ability to respond to demand. There's a nearly fixed supply, because no amount of demand can…

> when I said "dropping" I wasn't talking about a rule, I was using that to demonstrate the problem.

How is restricting activity not a rule? I don't think it would demonstrate the problem at all because I don't think it would actually do much (most people would ignore it). Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant originally or mean here?

> There's a nearly fixed supply, because no amount of demand can affect the shortages.

If demand dropped to the point below supply it wouldn't be a shortage.

> There's a nearly fixed demand, because enough of the cards are going to be sold at MSRP to keep stoking it.

> In a situation like that, someone arbitraging the prices is not helping supply and demand meet, they're just making a profit.

Sure they are. Without a secondary market and with a primary market that is fixed-price and a limited supply, after demand meets supply, nobody gets any more of that product, which means there's zero liquidity. With a secondary market, people re-sell for a profit, and the market has liquidity again. The people that want it are able to get it as long as they are willing to pay the extra amount. It's possible to buy the item where it would not be previously.

> You want some amount of secondary market so that the people that very badly need a card can pay extra to get one now. But a tiny percent of cards going onto ebay is enough to fulfill that role. If half the cards end up massively marked up on ebay, it doesn't help allocate them more efficiently in any significant way, it just takes more money from people.

I agree. I just don't think you can do anything about it usefully except to try to increase supply or reduce demand through various means. Everything else I've seen fails or has unintended consequences (which are hard to reason about ahead of time because they are by nature unintended).

I'm not arguing free markets always produce a good outcome, but I do think they generally provide the best outcome you can expect given the environment without relinquishing all control (and I think central planning only works for limited scopes and limited time frames).

The simple solution is to just increase the price of these cards to what the market deems they are worth, and the resale market problem goes away. The problem is that nobody (even me) really wants that, I'm just willing to say that while I don't want it for various reasons, it does solve the problem. It does that by reducing demand by increasing the price.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I unequivocally disagree with this statement - "happiness" achieved by video games is superficial, without real meaning. They are thrilling endeavors and fill time effectively, but they are absolutely secondary to the absolute positive of actually deriving income. I seriously can't believe that anyone would seriously argue a distraction is worth more than actual income.

What does mining crytprocurrency have to do with earning income? The two are completely mutually exclusive, in fact mining is a great example of making money without doing any useful work

Securing the network is useful work.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#788
post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think PC gaming should require you to be part of the top 10% in order to fairly price computer hardware between mostly foreign miners buying scores of chips whose primary contribution to society is using 129 TW hours annually and individual users buying a single GPU. As a selfish American I would rather we arrange for GPUs to be useless to a small number of users buying a large number of GPUS for mining in or…

Who knows about 10 years in the future; Perhaps crypto '10x's, and gamers move to cloud platforms. If the prices should be raised, after some years, the added margin will add competitors and increase the efficiency, thus making chips cheaper in the long-term. Anyhow, makes more sense to advocate for silicon subsidies, which helps with national geopolitics as well.

Cloud gaming suffers from inherent issues having to do with latency that are unsolvable. If you place a lot of expensive machines very close to users its not economical and if you put the machines further away from users the latency sucks.

It's likely that PC gaming will spend the next 40 years the same way it spent the last 40 years. It's also immaterial anyway. We need to not kill the PC gaming industry this decade not try to bring it back from the dead like lazarus with tech that may never come through. The same thing is true of using tax payer money to incentivize production of silicon. It may make sense for a number of reasons but its not a solution to I can't buy a GPU now. Making it uneconomical for miners to use gamer cards solves the issue this year. Meanwhile we can subsidize production of silicon in the states and work going "to the cloud" with the gaming industry if it makes sense. It's not an either or.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#789
post #441

This won't really do anything for availability or reducing scalper pricing. Miners are a sizeable proportion of sales but far from the majority. Gamers will be able to buy more of these GPUs but less of the non-LHR or AMD GPU's. GPU prices won't actually change. The real reason Nvidia is doing this is that when mining profitability inevitably drops, either because of a crypto price crash or Ethereum moving to Proof o…

> The real reason Nvidia is doing this is that when mining profitability inevitably drops, either because of a crypto price crash or Ethereum moving to Proof of Stake, the miners will flood the used market and ruin Nvidia's profits for a few quarters. Nvidia is trying to get miners to buy mining-only cards, because those can't be sold to gamers down the line. They'd rather mining cards become e-waste in a few years than get resold.

What they could have done is instead sell the video-capable cards in a way that discourages bulk buying (limits per customer, maybe a little bit bulkier and harder to correctly cool if several are in a rack) and then release a more bare-bone (no bulk, just a heatsink and optional fan) mining version that can be bulk-ordered and performs well in a rack mount.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#790
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks!!!! I found the option. I've heard great things about proton just didn't realize I had to flip a switch.

You might want to look into GloriousEggroll, it tends to have better support for media and such. https://github.com/GloriousEggroll/proton-ge-custom/wiki

And just proving why I love Hacker News. I'm going to test proton out a bit then I'll check this out. I appreciate all the links and help
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