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Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

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641–650 of 818 posts

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#641
post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anything sustainable about Bitcoin? But getting back on topic, Bitcoin miners long since moved to custom ASICs, you can't make a profit with GPUs any more.

I make $7-8 per day, after electrical costs, letting my 2080ti (normally used for flight sim, but when not in use…) run nicehash’s miner software. My electricity costs $0.0816 per kWh. Not a ton of money but it adds up after a month and the GPU was a sunk cost since I got it for gaming. It literally is profitable, for my situation anyway.

If you're using nicehash you're not mining bitcoin. The payout is in BTC but it mines whatever it thinks is most profitable. On your 2080ti, it's not bitcoin.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#642
post #546
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know much about GPUs and am curious how this "burn out" happens, do you have a link for those of us who'd like to read more about this?

There's three main ways GPUs wear out, silicon electromigration, electrolytic capacitor dryout, and fan bearing failure. And the first two happen much faster at higher temperatures. Temperatures are similar between gaming and mining, but miners run 24/7 compared to gaming 1-2 hrs/day, so the GPUs age like 10x faster. But still, GPU failures are pretty rare, I think the concern is overblown.

I’ve purchased graphics cards from the used market, and used them for years. Never any problems. One of my go to cards is 5 years old … that’s when I bought it - I’m guessing it’s much older.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> moral but are actively ineffective at their stated purpose; they just lead to the hypothetical price-gouge transaction never occurring. If you drive across state lines to bring HAM radios or water filters or what-have-you during hurricane katrina, and try to sell at above market rate, you'll be tossed in jail and your goods will be seized by the police, rather than making it out to the people who actually need them…

So now emergency workers aren’t allowed to be paid. Congrats.

What?

"emergency workers" are not "private individuals".

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s a bit of a straw man, literally no one considers that scalping. It’s generally understood to mean buying more of scarce product than you could ever possibly need with the intent to sell it at a massive markup. That is by no means the accepted definition, nor an apt description. I know people that bought two PS3's when they came out in 2006, one to play, one to sell. That is generally accepted as "scalping",…

> These are "scalpers" in every single single sense of the word, and the only difference between them and someone that makes a business out of it is scale. You're right they are scalpers; they are buying more than needed with the hope of making a quick buck. However, like most things it's a matter of degree. Your friends were acting in the wrong and in the aggregate they did harm the market, but the people doing it p…

> Your friends were acting in the wrong and in the aggregate they did harm the market

Please explain this harm to the market. I don't see how the market was harmed in any way.

> They create scarcity in the primary market, which forces people into the secondary market.

There exists scarcity in the primary market, because otherwise there would be no benefit to buying the tickets. That's a fundamental misunderstanding you have. Resellers do not generally create demand, they capitalize on existing or future demand.

> the same number of people would get tickets, but there would be a greater welfare gain for consumers.

Define "welfare gain". I contend there is also welfare gain for consumers with a secondary market, but not necessarily the same consumers. The primary market prioritized people that are available at certain times and have money available at the initial sale time. The secondary market prioritizes people that may not have been available at the initial sale time at the cost of a more variable cost.

You can contend that your group of consumer is better or more worth than the group I've defined, but if that's your goal, please do so. Otherwise, a secondary market provides access for at least the same number of people, and sometimes more, as it's possible (and likely) that while some tickets might go at a premium, some others might go at a discount because of poorly executed strategies by brokers.

> They may be taking some risk in their venture, but they're still not providing any value.

They are. That are providing access. Without a secondary market, after the last primary market ticket was sold, it would be impossible to buy tickets to that event. Even if you allowed a secondary market but somehow restricted it to only those that intended to go but could not, you would shut out all those that wanted to go but could not be available to buy tickets during the period it was initially on sale on the primary market. For some events that's as short as a few seconds (and yes, even without brokers).

> They are needless middlemen in a market that already sells direct to consumers.

So is Amazon. So is your local Supermarket. So is any fresh fruit or produce market for that matter. I mean you can just drive to the farm, right? I hope you only like your produce and fruit in season, because people that warehouse it to sell at times when the market isn't flush with that product are just needless middlemen in a market that sells direct, right?

> Presumably they are claiming a bigger share of the welfare pie than they are giving, else they wouldn't be participating in the market.

If all you prioritize is cost, then you're not serving people very well. The very nature of a market is that the many diverse needs of the buyers will be served by different sellers that offer slightly different incentives for different costs. If we only prioritized for cost in food, we'd all be eating rice and beans every night and that's all that would be grown. Instead people prioritize taste, and nutrition, and health, and we have an actual market. If we only prioritized for cost in vehicles, we'd all be driving either a bicycle or a stripped down motorcycle, because who cares about comfort or safety?

> The market system is theorised to be the most efficient means to allocate this capital.

The market system is theorized to be the most efficient means to alloow buyers with diverse needs find a seller that can provide those needs. Sometimes that's cost, sometimes it's something else.

> The scalpers don't serve a social purpose

I've outlined some already above. To repeat, they provide liquidity, meaning there is availability of tickets at a cost people are willing to pay more often than without them. They provide the ability to find the true value of a ticket at any time, rather than the fiat price that was offered initially. This can mean that tickets are available for cheaper than originally offered for (see my real life example noted earlier).

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#645
>NVIDIA announced today that it's halving the hash rate for Etehereum cryptocurrency mining on the new GeForce RTX 3080, 3070, and 3060 Ti graphics cards to make them less desirable for miners.

I have a question for someone familiar with GPU technicalities.

Won't this affect other, non-mining tasks?

Crypto mining is based on cryptographic hashing algorithms.

So won't this affect people in security? That work with hashing algorthims? I suspect tools like hashcat[0] may be affected.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcat

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a fancy word for scalping?

No, scalping is a loaded word for reselling. This whole situation, and especially the anger at other market participants from people like you, is totally ridiculous. We know how markets work. NVidia is pricing their units at far below market value. What did you expect? Next you'll complain that water is wet and that the wind blows. NVidia could solve this problem immediately by correctly pricing their units. If they…

> We know how markets work

Badly. They work badly.

> But instead they insist on continuing to mis-price their products

They are not mis-priced, they are already a pretty hefty buy. If the prices were to increase even further, _then_ it would be mis-priced, as no-one needs to spend this much on a videocard to play videogames. The fact that gamers have to compete with miners (for whom it's an investment) and AI researchers (for whom it's a job tool) does nothing to justify the purchase for the higher price

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#647
post #582
post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's three main ways GPUs wear out, silicon electromigration, electrolytic capacitor dryout, and fan bearing failure. And the first two happen much faster at higher temperatures. Temperatures are similar between gaming and mining, but miners run 24/7 compared to gaming 1-2 hrs/day, so the GPUs age like 10x faster. But still, GPU failures are pretty rare, I think the concern is overblown.

Miners undervolt and often underclock though: heat is their enemy, so they’re more particular about this than gamers are these days.

They also sometimes do GPU BIOS modifications, which is a fun thing to discover once the card ends up on the second-hand market and you happen to buy one. Luckily the fix is to reflash the BIOS using a matching one from TechPowerUp GPU database, but this assumes that you even know that this is something to pay attention to.

Source: happened with an RX 560 that I bought second-hand. Driver installation failed in Windows 10 due to the modified GPU BIOS. Was fixed with a reflash of a stock GPU BIOS using atiflash.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#648
post #441

This won't really do anything for availability or reducing scalper pricing. Miners are a sizeable proportion of sales but far from the majority. Gamers will be able to buy more of these GPUs but less of the non-LHR or AMD GPU's. GPU prices won't actually change. The real reason Nvidia is doing this is that when mining profitability inevitably drops, either because of a crypto price crash or Ethereum moving to Proof o…

Sounds like a win-win

Gamers (generally very price-conscious) get a more stable close-to-msrp price now and in the future, nvidia secures their supply

You're right with respect to e-waste, but I wonder if they may end up really subsidizing hobbyist data analysis.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#649
post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t wealthy just buying giant TH asic machines? The gpus are good exactly because they are efficient but if you didn’t care about power consumption, ASICS are more profitable (in terms of cost of setup vs return from mining). The primary reason I went with gpus, is because I can shut them off based on solar excess in 100w increments. So if I’m 200w in excess, turn 2 cards on. 300w - 3 cards etc.

They're not. Asics are more a function of the coin being mined. Namely, if asics are out and competitive, they generally replace gpus altogether as they're both more powerful and efficient. See btc, where gpu mining is completely worthless. Eth on the other hand has no notable asic out AFAIK, and requires gpu mining. Eth miners, regardless of scale, thus require gpus.

btc mining isn't worthless - just you don't directly mine. You sell your compute to the pools.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scalpers hurt literally everyone. Not entirely true, and also not accepting that one person's "scalper" is another person's "bought this but decided I would rather have the money it seems to be worth now that I see how much this is". Secondary markets provide liquidity, allow for original sellers to trade money for time, provide reputational protection based on societal perceptions (this one is a bit weird, and may…

> Not entirely true, and also not accepting that one person's "scalper" is another person's "bought this but decided I would rather have the money it seems to be worth now that I see how much this is". Even just dropping resales to one GPU per person per year would make an enormous difference, let alone if it was limited to people that genuinely bought the one GPU for themselves.

It doesn't work. It's unenforceable without the government to enforce it, and even then people will skirt it.

Rules constraining how a market functions often don't work or have unintended consequences. The only real solution is to attack supply and/or demand. A rule limiting how many a person can buy doesn't actually affect demand, it just affects that market's ability to respond to demand. You get people that circumvent that, and if it's onerous enough you'll get a secondary market where they cost more but there's no limit on the amount you can buy, if there wasn't one already.

That is, it's restrictions on a free market which create secondary markets. If the price was constantly in flux base don demand, there would be no secondary market because it would provide nothing over the primary one.

People don't want that though, because we've been conditioned over the last century to expect prices to be stable because we've had large companies that decided to innovate and compete in other areas that decided pricing things accurately based on real world local conditions. I mean, I understand, I'm the same way. I don't want to walk into a store and find the thing I went to buy is twice as expensive as it was yesterday.

I do think that's a more natural and sustainable state though, as long as market principles are actually prioritized though, instead of just being paid lip service (having one entity control a large chunk of a market is bad, and so is making it hard to reason about items and features in a market, as competition and information are the life-blood of free-markets).

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