8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#781

Post by starlust2 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #428

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

There are other ways to deal with this than censorship. Why are there not FBI agents in /pol/ on 8chan actively chasing up leads on people who are threatening violence? It seems actually useful that these people are willing to make these kind of plans in the public eye. Force them underground and behind encryption and it will be harder to monitor. Does anyone know how law enforcement engages with places like 8chan? I…

There's rumblings that FBI are hesitant to investigate Trump's base because it will affect their careers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/fbi-faces-s...

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#782

Post by busymom0 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #539

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

My main issue with discussions on topics like this is a sort of fundamentalism. It's very easy to take a particular right (e.g., speech, property) and defend it absolutely. But rights are inherently social, and must be balanced against other people's rights. For example, I don't think my freedom of speech should trump Cloudflare's or Voxility's right to freedom of association. They should generally be able to decide…

> But rights are inherently social

No, the founding fathers specifically said that freedom of speech is a God given right and not something which the government gives to a person, instead the government simply recognizes that right. They specifically said freedom of speech is a "Natural" right.

Right to clean water is not a right, right to education is not a natural right in their terms. Right to speech, right to self defense are natural rights.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#783

Post by chessturk » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

ddebernardy wrote: post #375

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

How do you weigh something like the burka?

On one hand to reject it, you would be intolerant of hundreds of years of tradition.

On the other hand, to permit it is to accept the idea that men are incapable of controlling not sexually assualting a woman and that women ought to be blamed for their own victimization. This is clearly intolerant of women being full members of society.

Either way, permitting or banning the burka is intolerant.

Then you arrive at that whole legal concept of reasonable discrimination, because property laws discriminate against thieves. But what is reasonable here?

I'm fond of the idea of only tolerating tolerance, but how do you deal with these edge cases? If you rigidly adhere to that tolerance-uber-allis belief, how long until you end up jailing people for following ancient but intolerant traditions? How long until you end up with Chinese style muslim re-education camps? This isn't a troll, this is actually one of my own philosophical conundrums. I believe in a vacuum that people would be happier not following those ancient intolerant schemas, but I don't see that as the situation in the present day.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#784

Post by randallsquared » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

boramalper wrote: post #182

What people (seemingly) fail to realise is that neither Cloudflare is the Internet nor Voxility is a public infrastructure. They are private enterprises which are free to act in however they want with regards to the service they provide as laid out in their contract. That is the danger of centralisation; when they remove their service, it feels as if your rights has been violated because (a) you have been so used to…

Decentralization is tempting for anti-censorship advocates, but the thing to remember is that freer services only win if they're also better for people who don't care about censorship, which means most people. Decentralized services are easy to demonize to the extent that they allow non-approved matters. The only way to escape that is to be so much better that it doesn't matter, like the web was in the 90s.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#785

Post by emilsedgh » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

chessturk wrote: post #783

ddebernardy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

How do you weigh something like the burka? On one hand to reject it, you would be intolerant of hundreds of years of tradition. On the other hand, to permit it is to accept the idea that men are incapable of controlling not sexually assualting a woman and that women ought to be blamed for their own victimization. This is clearly intolerant of women being full members of society. Either way, permitting or banning the…

The solution to Burqa is not to make it illegal, but to educate future generations.

Burqa wearing woman don't harm anyone but themselves.

I don't understand how wearing Burqa is different from something like being Amish.

Should we make that illegal too?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#786

Post by odessacubbage » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:26 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #428

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

There are other ways to deal with this than censorship. Why are there not FBI agents in /pol/ on 8chan actively chasing up leads on people who are threatening violence? It seems actually useful that these people are willing to make these kind of plans in the public eye. Force them underground and behind encryption and it will be harder to monitor. Does anyone know how law enforcement engages with places like 8chan? I…

>Why are there not FBI agents in /pol/ on 8chan actively chasing up leads on people who are threatening violence?

>https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9OzsEqUYAACo4H.png:large

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#787

Post by frogpelt » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

Most of the basis for a free society breaks down when people lose basic morals.

Whether you choose to believe in God or not, many of the framers of our Constitution and those who penned the Declaration of Independence believed in the Supreme Judge of the World, the Creator etc. and based their morals upon that belief.

When those morals become less than the norm for society, many problems arise.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#788

Post by h2odragon » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #172

h2odragon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, all those people who were having fun on 8chan will now see the error of their ways, take up sensitivity training, and post only non-controversial things where ever they land next.

What are you using hyperbole to communicate? Can you be more explicit?

Shutting down 8chan will not shut these people up. they will find somewhere else to talk to each other, as people do. While they're looking many message boards will be graced with new users: the form 8chan brigades are I fear going to discover they can land on places they don't like and cause their shutdown now too.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#789

Post by surbas » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

busymom0 wrote: post #782

wpietri wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main issue with discussions on topics like this is a sort of fundamentalism. It's very easy to take a particular right (e.g., speech, property) and defend it absolutely. But rights are inherently social, and must be balanced against other people's rights. For example, I don't think my freedom of speech should trump Cloudflare's or Voxility's right to freedom of association. They should generally be able to decide…

> But rights are inherently social No, the founding fathers specifically said that freedom of speech is a God given right and not something which the government gives to a person, instead the government simply recognizes that right. They specifically said freedom of speech is a "Natural" right. Right to clean water is not a right, right to education is not a natural right in their terms. Right to speech, right to sel…

Not sure they said that... also “founding fathers” are not the be all end all of of what are “rights”. OP is talking about what is called the “social contract”.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#790

Post by chessturk » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 11:30 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #549

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

> some minimum level of education What a bunch of horse crap. Being told what to think, what to buy, who to vote for, how to feel. If you claim to believe in a liberal democracy but want "education" or limited-speech then you don't have must faith in the system. Democracy has been broken since the rise of technology and mass media. If you control the narrative, you control the people, and the power. The outrage over…

> Democracy has been broken since the rise of technology and mass media.

I'm sorry, when was everyone equally franchised? Between Jim Crow, Women's Sufferage, and Civil Rights you've got what? The mid 60s to mid 80s as the heyday of American Democracy? Having Nixon smack in the middle of that doesn't really help the arguement.

If we define democracy as universal suffrage and equal vote weight, democracy has been more of an aspiration and less of a reality since the beginning of time. If you don't define democracy that way, then we're talking past eachother.