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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#771

Post by Jensson »

txrx0000 wrote: post #726
kelipso wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ratio of men to women who are at 1500 Elo in chess is like worse than 90:1, so no, you host an intermediate level tournament and it will be almost all men. Well, mostly boys but that’s current chess for you. But it’s not just that. If there are no top women in any kind of leagues in chess, that will only further discourage women from participating competitively in chess in the first place. Note that most competit…

The male-to-female ratio at 1500 elo is not 90:1, but more like 9:1. 10% is a visible minority. But I see where our disagreement is. You think there ought to be more women in chess. I think different people can do different things, so women don't need to match men in every statistic and vice versa. If we open it up to universal participation and it turns out to be a male-dominated game, then let it be. I don't think…

> I think different people can do different things, so women don't need to match men in every statistic and vice versa. If we open it up to universal participation and it turns out to be a male-dominated game, then let it be. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

You don't have a say though, others want to see women play chess against each others and happily pay for and organize that event. Or do you want to make female only events illegal? As long as they are legal they will continue to be held.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#772

Post by Jensson »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #732
egberts1 wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400 transfems at Olympic events is rare?

first of all, you need a source for 400. 2nd of all 400/11000 athletes is 3%. that's roughly inline with population statistics in the 15-25 demographic

> 2nd of all 400/11000 athletes is 3%. that's roughly inline with population statistics in the 15-25 demographic

No its not 3% for the world, for USA maybe but most countries barely have any trans people at all.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#773

Post by [deleted] »

zuminator wrote: post #638
dpatterbee wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We probably don't want to head down the path of creating new competitions for people that meet arbitrary criteria. White-straight-man only olympics anyone?

White straight men aren't being barred from the Olympics.

[deleted]

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#774

Post by machomaster »

crote wrote: post #754
cmiles8 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re getting into a separate issue of blocking puberty in children, which may would consider abuse. Separate from that there are still measurable differences between sexes that you can’t just magically change with a pill or surgery.

> Separate from that there are still measurable differences between sexes Ever seen pre-puberty kids play against each other? The girls and boys perform about the same.

No, they are not when equated with the same developmental stage (girls' growth spurts start earlier).

Looking at the athletic measurements, boys are better/stronger/faster than girls by a noticeable 5-10%.

After the hormones finally kick in, this jumps to 40-100%.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#775

Post by machomaster »

mandevil wrote: post #357
xvxvx wrote: post #4

I wonder if anyone has measured the speed in which reality is codified into law or regulation. Women have been fighting against males in female sports for many, many years. Why did it take so long for something so obvious to be acted upon?

The Olympics used to do this. From as early as the 1960's they were doing genetic testing on female athletes. They stripped Polish sprinter Ewa Kłobukowska of all her medals and records in 1967, in spite of the fact that she gave birth to a child a year later, which would seem to indicate that she was a woman. The Olympics only abandoned this testing regime after the 1996 Olympic Games when 8 women who were cis and a…

Anecdotally there has been a common knowledge that some of the record-setting Soviet women in disciplines line disk throwing, etc, had genetic abnormalities and had to suddenly finish their careers when the aforementioned testing came.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#776

Post by machomaster »

thunderfork wrote: post #592
zahlman wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Nobody is banned from the "men's" category, including unambiguously cisgender women of completely unambiguous sexual characteristics. They just wouldn't stand a chance, practically speaking (for example, in the 100 metre sprint, the all-time women's world record time would not meet the qualification standard). There was already "sex discrimination" in the fact of the women's category existing in the first place;…

>Nobody is banned from the "men's" category, including unambiguously cisgender women of completely unambiguous sexual characteristics. This is exactly my point. Men with unusual characteristics are celebrated, but women with unusual characteristics are excluded into a non-competitive category. You can justify it if you'd like, but in a practical sense, no man will ever get to the Olympics only to be turned away becau…

Adults can't compete in kids' categories either, not even in boys' or young men'. What an indignity, to be forced to compete fairly. Womp-womp.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#777

Post by lstodd »

crote wrote: post #737
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to go back that far. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia

That's cis women using doping. Considering how transphobic Russia is, the chance of them using any kind of "trans loophole" is zero.

More like 100% and has probably happened multiple times already.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#779

Post by aucisson_masque »

crote wrote: post #739
aucisson_masque wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, it just got to be fair for everyone. Can't make a woman with 'internal testicles and higher levels of testosterone compare against other women, that would be like accepting dopping.

And Michael Phelps should be banned for having freakishly long arms - his genetic advantage is basically doping as well, obviously!

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#780

Post by dpd_dpd »

crote wrote: post #733
dillydogg wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I would suggest as a pathologist who deals with diagnosing these: the incidence of differences of sexual development is somewhere between 1 in 1000 - 4500 births. So this policy will not unlikely diagnose someone with a DSD who didn't know.

Have we forgotten about Caster Semenya already? Women with DSD on averave have a higher testosterone level. Testosterone generally makes you better at sports. The Olympics select for the very best athletes. In other words: the Olympics are selecting for women with DSD, so once you start doing 100% testing you'll find an incidence far above that of the general population.

If Semenya had been categorized according to his sex, he wouldn't be considered amongst the very best athletes. He is basically a middling standard 800m male runner who has been able to make a career on the back of what is essentially an administrative error.

Talent scouts specifically sought out males like Semenya who were erroneously registered as female at birth, knowing that their male physical advantage would give them an edge in women's competitions.

The specific condition he has (5-alpha reductase deficiency) is one that only affects males, conferring upon them internal testicles and a micropenis. But male development, including all the testosterone-driven advantages that distinguish male and female athletic performance, is otherwise normal.

His gold medal in the 2016 Rio Olympics women's 800m, along with silver and bronze being taken by two other males with similar conditions, is the reason why World Athletics (then the IAAF) and, later, the IOC started to move policy away from eligibility by identity documentation to empirical testing of sex advantage.

The policy change discussed in the linked article wouldn't have happened without athletes like Semenya taking advantage of the previous flawed policy, to the detriment of female athletes.

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