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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#411

Post by pfych »

nradov wrote: post #308
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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This is a matter of principle, fair play, and safety. Whether it's a tiny number or "scores and scores" is irrelevant. If you're looking for specific incidents then start with this site. I can't vouch for it being completely accurate but you can use it as a starting point for further research to educate yourself about the issue. https://www.shewon.org/

FYI - shewon is entirely self reported and does no verification. It includes events such as local town fair bean bag throwing competitions.

It also classifies a trans person winning anything as ~3 losses since "a non-trans person may have shifted the entire bracket" moving 2nd -> 1st, 3rd -> 2nd etc... The entire site is hypebole and should not be used as a serious reference lol.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#412

Post by fwip »

nradov wrote: post #251
n4r9 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there not an option to have inclusion at grassroots level and fair play as the level of competition gets higher?

Sure, I guess that's an option for youth sports in the prepubescent age groups. As a practical matter most youth sports leagues and schools aren't going to hassle with sex screening tests for little kids. But once puberty hits everything changes. My teenage daughter played travel club volleyball on a pretty good team, and during practice they would occasionally run drills with the boys team. Even at that age the diff…

You believe that women are genetically more susceptible to concussions than men are?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#413

Post by [deleted] »

UncleMeat wrote: post #368
cm2187 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already exists, it's what people refer to as "male olympics". As far as I know, females aren't banned from competing. It is just that they don't stand a chance in most disciplines. The whole point of female olympics is to keep males out.

That’s not true. Men’s gymnastics and women’s gymnastics are totally different sets of events and men would get trounced in a women’s event.

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#414

Post by lynndotpy »

NeutralCrane wrote: post #379
lynndotpy wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that is not a good analogy at all. It's so poor an analogy that it's challenging to interpret this comment generously. I think you might be arguing facetiously to make a different rhetoric point than the literal content of your post, bot I will respond to your text literally. Humans have a wide variety of biological variation in metrics we think of as linked to "biological sex" and those metrics are accessibly mu…

> Bipedalism is something which varies very rarely and is especially not accessibly mutable. This would apply to sex chromosomes as well

So? It would apply to sex chromosomes and only sex chromosomes, which is just one observed sex characteristic.

We are talking about sexual dimorphism and secondary sex characteristics.

Humans were understood to be sexually dimorphic before we discovered sex chromosomes in 1905, and we usually label our babies with a biological sex without the aid of consumer genetic testing.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#415

Post by esterna »

andsoitis wrote: post #314
kg wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, many countries/states are working hard to make it impossible to transition that early.

At 12 you simply do not have sufficient capacity to make a good decision on the matter.

And yet we cannot stop time, and a decision has to be made. It seems natural to involve the child in this decision.

Of course, the next best thing (if a decision can't be made now) after stopping time are puberty blockers. Which are not completely without risks, but this applies to the other two options just as well (if not more so).

You can't not make decisions, and to claim so is to frame choosing one particular option as not-a-decision.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#416

Post by gwbas1c »

cmiles8 wrote: post #159

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I know of one person who was born physically a woman, but has XY chromosomes. It is only due to modern medicine that we know that there is anything "unusual" with her gender. Otherwise, she is physically a woman with no observable clues to her condition.

(IE, in the past, she would have been infertile, and probably died young due to her situation.)

I'm not comfortable with saying that people like her need to compete with men.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#417

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

locknitpicker wrote: post #369
callistocodes wrote: post #334

My two cents as a transfem athlete: The attention this topic receives is disproportionate considering how rare we are, especially close to the Olympics level. Most of us do sports for fun/friends and don’t care how they rank us, but would be sad to be banned. There might be more “biological advantage” nuance with people just starting their transition, but by this many years in it feels silly. I registered as a man fo…

> The attention this topic receives is disproportionate considering how rare we are, especially close to the Olympics level. We all remember state-sponsored doping scandals from the 60s where iron curtain nations invested heavily on medical research and experiments on prospective athletes to try to get medals. It's not hard to understand how badly this would turn out to be if the same sort of unscrupulous regime coul…

You don't have to go back that far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#418

Post by youarentrightjr »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #327
nradov wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a matter of principle, fair play, and safety. Whether it's a tiny number or "scores and scores" is irrelevant. If you're looking for specific incidents then start with this site. I can't vouch for it being completely accurate but you can use it as a starting point for further research to educate yourself about the issue. https://www.shewon.org/

> This is a matter of principle, fair play, and safety. Whether it's a tiny number or "scores and scores" is irrelevant. What if it's 0? > If you're looking for specific incidents then start with this site. A deeply unbiased source, I'm sure. Anyway I'd love to but all their archive links are the same. Looks like someone wrote a for loop incorrectly. But to be blunt, this is the exact same sort of nonsense as VAERS a…

Cmon guy, you can't ask for a source and then dismiss the one provided without critically examining it.

You're complaining that it's using publicly available data? Would you rather private anecdotes?

> Also, a SHIT LOAD of these are for second/third/whatever place, not even for wins.

Not sure why this is relevant - is being cheated out of second place less of a misdeed than being cheated out of first?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#419

Post by turtlesdown11 »

frumplestlatz wrote: post #258
tdb7893 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a biological perspective, the women being banned here are not just men and as far as I'm aware cannot realistically compete in the men's division any more than any other woman. Practically these changes bar women athletes with certain medical differences from competing in the Olympics. I'm not an expert so idk whether that's fair or not but that's what this decision is doing.

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#420

Post by etherus »

frumplestlatz wrote: post #394
callistocodes wrote: post #334

My two cents as a transfem athlete: The attention this topic receives is disproportionate considering how rare we are, especially close to the Olympics level. Most of us do sports for fun/friends and don’t care how they rank us, but would be sad to be banned. There might be more “biological advantage” nuance with people just starting their transition, but by this many years in it feels silly. I registered as a man fo…

> but would be sad to be banned. Enforcing the existing and long-standing sex-based classification is not a ban; competition within one’s own sex category was always and remains permitted.

If you were required to compete with people of a gender you do not identify with, even when event organisers recognise you as more fitting among the other group, that's a ban. There are trans masc people. Requiring them to compete with women is unfair and disrespectful. Requiring trans fem people to do so is the same. The rules around gender identification in regulated sports require proof of medical treatment yada yada to accept that people are 'trans enough', which is itself discriminatory. Trans people are a lot less distinct and separate from everyone else than you'd be led to think.
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