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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#771

Post by onetimeusename »

rayiner wrote: post #257
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> I'm positive that Satya and Sundar are great motivators for indian kids to look up to (as they should be). I'm doubtful about that. At least among my cohort (first generation south asian immigrants to the east coast) there's not a strong sense of racial identity. There's strong identity in the sense of ties to religion, home countries, culture, and traditions, but not group identification or a feeling of collective…

So in other words, without DEI, white people are evil and with DEI, white people are evil. Are you sure "white people" are actually in control?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#772

Post by wahern »

tptacek wrote: post #769
wahern wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critical Race Theory emerged from mid-20th century Black Power and Colonial Independence movements, which often either were literally Marxist movements in their own right, or intimately tied to them. There are countless examples of the close relationship, but one of the most pertinent embodiments would in be Frantz Fanon, who is one of the most important if not the most important ideological fathers of both Critical…

Oh boy. Look, I just wanted to ding Rayiner for buying Rufo's schtick. In the Rufo cinematic universe, Gramsci is the most dangerous thinker of the 20th century. Would Crenshaw agree that Fanon is the beginning and end of CRT? Race, Reform, and Retrenchment[1] contains an extended, detailed critique of Critical Legal Studies for instrumentalizing and superficializing Black struggle, and for the premise that in a conf…

If CRT has anything to teach, it's that if you dismiss people's lived experience[1] you're only causing more trouble. When people see parallels between CRT and Marxism, you can either dismiss them or take them seriously. The fact that you disagree about the scope or meaning or implications of those parallels is a different matter. If you outright dismiss what seems patently obvious to people, that's where they'll stay stuck; and moreover, they'll take your dismissal as evidence of relative credibility.

I get that there are trolls out, including professional trolls, who weaponize innuendo and have zero interest in engaging in honest debate. But the reason for abstaining from quick dismissals is for the benefit of the people they're targeting, not the trolls. I guess what I should have written was: CRT absolutely has deep connections with Marxist thought. See, e.g. Frantz Fanon. So what?

[1] Only half using that phrase facetiously.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#773

Post by tptacek »

wahern wrote: post #772
tptacek wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh boy. Look, I just wanted to ding Rayiner for buying Rufo's schtick. In the Rufo cinematic universe, Gramsci is the most dangerous thinker of the 20th century. Would Crenshaw agree that Fanon is the beginning and end of CRT? Race, Reform, and Retrenchment[1] contains an extended, detailed critique of Critical Legal Studies for instrumentalizing and superficializing Black struggle, and for the premise that in a conf…

If CRT has anything to teach, it's that if you dismiss people's lived experience[1] you're only causing more trouble. When people see parallels between CRT and Marxism, you can either dismiss them or take them seriously. The fact that you disagree about the scope or meaning or implications of those parallels is a different matter. If you outright dismiss what seems patently obvious to people, that's where they'll sta…

I can't not point this out, even though it's about the orangest thing I can write here: Fanon died roughly 30 years before CRT was a thing, and, moreover, CRT is an offshoot of Critical Legal Studies (which in turn is an offshoot of critical theory), and Fanon wasn't a legal scholar. He's a race-oriented critical theorist (I can't believe I'm writing this), right, not a critical race theorist?

Again, just back to Crenshaw, who wrote at length about how Critical Legal Studies loses the plot about racism in its zeal to reconsider the entire liberal legal structure.

I promise I'm just writing this because, like many HN comments, it is a sort of rhetorical burp I just have to get out.

More seriously: it is somewhat frustrating that any serious analysis of oppressor/oppressed systems can be dismissed as "Marxist" because of Gramsci and hegemony, because oppression is obviously a real thing (ask any evangelical Christian) but neo-Marxism is principally trotted out when the oppressed are disfavored. But then, lots of academics who pretty clearly aren't Marxist are happy to use Gramscian neo-Marxism as a tool, so, sure, maybe you're just right about this.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#774

Post by idlewords »

tptacek wrote: post #770
idlewords wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have to do a proper nerdout to give you a more intelligible answer. It's hard to talk about this stuff without slipping into boring political rants. The gist of the matter seems to come down to these bits: 1. A schema of the world as an unfair arrangement of oppression and coercion 2. The claim to a correct understanding of how this system operates and perpetuates istelf 3. The belief that contrary thoughts and b…

That's a real phenomenon! Obviously it is. I only dispute that you can: (a) Trace it back to Gramsci, call it neo-Marxist, and then accuse anyone who ever bought an Robin DiAngelo book and performatively left it on their desk at work of being a neo-Marxist, and (b) Seriously argue that the phenomenon is not only a religion, but is simultaneously the result and cause of the ordination of women in the Episcopalian chur…

I confess that I do not know who Rufo is or his opinions on any topic, and only jumped in to this thread because you seemed honestly at a loss about why people were being accused of Marxism despite having comfortably bourgeois beliefs about who should own the means of production.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#775

Post by throw_m239339 »

tootie wrote: post #699
throw_m239339 wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That infers the baseline is equality. The reality is that hiring without explicit guidelines will bias against POC. DEI is about counteracting unconscious (or conscious) bias. No, DEI is about replacing one bias with another in order to make a bunch of white people feel better about themselves. DEI doesn't consider Indians or South Asian looking people "People of color", because there are "too many of them in tech…

I don't think any of that is true or at least I've never observed it. It's also entirely possible for a DEI program to be run incompetently.

> I don't think any of that is true or at least I've never observed it. It's also entirely possible for a DEI program to be run incompetently.

From which perspective are race categorized in USA? From the white man's perspective. These DEI are all about some's ego and sense of guilt. Never about fairness nor equal opportunity. Yet these programs makes people who themselves are victim of racism, who never had anything to do with US slavery, pay the price individually, regardless of the inherited wealth/connections AKA socio-economic background.

Of course all I said is true, there is just the racism DEI corporations care about and the racism they don't care about, which is the direct result of DEI policies.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#776

Post by tptacek »

idlewords wrote: post #774
tptacek wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a real phenomenon! Obviously it is. I only dispute that you can: (a) Trace it back to Gramsci, call it neo-Marxist, and then accuse anyone who ever bought an Robin DiAngelo book and performatively left it on their desk at work of being a neo-Marxist, and (b) Seriously argue that the phenomenon is not only a religion, but is simultaneously the result and cause of the ordination of women in the Episcopalian chur…

I confess that I do not know who Rufo is or his opinions on any topic, and only jumped in to this thread because you seemed honestly at a loss about why people were being accused of Marxism despite having comfortably bourgeois beliefs about who should own the means of production.

I endorse your not knowing who Rufo is. I am retreating from the bailey of my claim that there is no such thing as neo-Marxism (though I will go to the mattresses for the claim that Jordan Peterson doesn't know that it means) and retrenching in my motte of none of this having the slightest bit to do with the collapse of mainline protestantism.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#777

Post by KwisatzHaderack »

tacitusarc wrote: post #372
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. This includes changing away from “master” as a br…

> and second, it undermines the importance of critical thinking and analysis in engineering.

I think this is the real harm being done here. Being trained to accept irrationality and poor judgment bleeds into engineering decisions.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#778

Post by KwisatzHaderack »

kodah wrote: post #624
Manuel_D wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be okay with white and Asian people similarly applying in-group advantage towards their own races to the detriment of ours? The software interview process is capricious, but this doesn't justify racial discrimination. If we're so nonchalant about racism favoring us, we're hypocrites for criticizing racism favoring other groups over us. I am deeply troubled by racial discrimination favoring Latin people, des…

There's different reasons we design different systems to combat discrimination or lop-sided outcomes. White and Asian people, if that is their only identifying class characteristic, are not discriminated against generally. An argument could be made that white and Asian people from poor backgrounds don't make it into programming as much, but again - class lines. We probably should compensate for class more in discrimi…

> Asian people, if that is their only identifying class characteristic, are not discriminated against generally.

Harvard would like a word with you.

But in all seriousness, Asians face the discrimination of being perceived as foreign and “the other” more so compared to other racial minorities. So the claim that they generally don’t face discrimination is not true.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#779

Post by gadders »

tjpnz wrote: post #751
gadders wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's starting to get traction. For instance, this is a government-sponsored organisation in the UK trying to encourage it in banking: https://www.progresstogether.co.uk/our-purpose/ There are similar orgs for consulting and law. Not heard of any for the FAANG/start-up/tech world.

Thanks for the link. I'll keep this in mind next time I try to force the issue. If it's already gaining traction in the banking sector tech has no excuse.

No worries. I've started an Employee Resource Group for it an my current place. As someone else said, socio-economic mobility is the tide that raises all boats.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#780

Post by KwisatzHaderack »

barry-cotter wrote: post #237
jimbokun wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they still try to use as money proxies for race But that's completely legitimate. If black people (for example) are systemically poorer than white people as a group, it makes sense to give them more help. It's favoring a wealthy black person over a poor white person, that's arguably problematic.

But that's completely legitimate. If [Asian|Jewish] people (for example) are systemically [better at university] than white people as a group, it makes sense to [hold them to much higher standards than white people in university admissions].

> If [Asian|Jewish] people (for example) are systemically [better at university] than white people as a group, it makes sense to [hold them to much higher standards than white people in university admissions].

Found the Harvard admissions officer.

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