Live data from Hacker News

American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

771–780 of 888 posts

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#771

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

I have mixed feelings about this. The issue is that there aren't enough elite seats, maybe applying to those schools is a good idea because it starts to create more elite seats. I seriously doubt there would be a serious detriment to your son's education for going to Harvey Mudd for example. I think that the subtext here is the brand name of Stanford and MIT and the Ivies is very desirable and this is less about education.

The brand is real though. Those top tier schools are gateways to power and money. I read through the law suit made against Harvard and other schools and it blames white people, not affirmative action in general. It compares the test scores of white people against Asians and argues that there should be fewer white people. The % of Harvard that is white is 33%. The % of the US is 57.5%. Whites are being shut out of the premier gateways to power in the US. I think AA based on race makes sense in some way because of what these schools mean in reality. It's not just about education.

The test score gap between Asians and whites is not even very broad. So on the one hand, I think all this focus on race is detrimental to life if we use it to judge the most elite people in the country. On the other hand, I think this lawsuit is just more squabbling between races to be the #1. This is a fight about prestige and power and not education, at least in my opinion.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#772

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

Ostensibly to you it isn’t “fair” in the way you have described it. But from a different view, your son is very privileged to be in the position he is, I’m sure he will do well wherever he goes for school. You’re in the South Bay bubble that has put so much hype and pressure on these things. Of course, education is important to you as a cultural value and practical matter; but consider that students who are capable c…

Anyone who gets into a top tier school, by preference, legacy, or whatever, is already on a course to do well. They could have settled for the 2nd tier just as well.

The different perspective you are referring to is groups versus individuals. to the degree that they differ, whatever is most fair for one will be less fair for the other. It is objectively true that a group preference will be unfair on an individual level to some people. For example, on an individual basis, legacy admits only benefit legacy applicants. Yet you're using this argument to support penalizing people who are not legacy applicants.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#773
post #581

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person from a minority race and saw how they were treated. That is when I noticed I live in a racist society. I love the economist. Their writing is so good, they are biased but know it, and acknowledge it. Biased, but not bigoted. nYet this article misses the point, I…

>For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. And what was the society answer to racism? More racism but directed towards groups that were deemed "offenders". Somehow, some people decreed that thare is "bad" racism and that there is "good" racism. That there is "bad" discrimination and that there is "good" discrimination. This is obviously false and we shou…

>>For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water.

>And what was the society answer to racism? More racism but directed towards groups that were deemed "offenders".

Racism is not just "racial prejudice" it is "Power imbalances based on racial prejudice". Which is why "reverse racism" is not.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#774

> Nothing the Supreme Court says about the consideration of race in college admissions will affect the more basic problem, that too few Americans from poorer families are sufficiently prepared to apply to college. About sums it up. Though if there are any visible disparities in the populations that produce poor children who are prepared, I expect a loud argument.

Meanwhile, president of 50k/year liberal arts college says student debt "gets a bad wrap" and warns that alternatives include colleges having to "eat the cost" https://www.marketwatch.com/story/debt-gets-a-bad-rap-as-a-c...

The last time I looked at the financials for the University of Texas system, they could charge zero tuition for every student and they'd still make a profit every year (mostly from their massive amount of money in investments).

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#775
post #622

Out of curiosity, how many people have flagged this post? It seems to be actively deprioritized by the HN algo? Now this post is in mid second page 613pts 592comments 7 hrs. For comparison the first ten posts now on HN are: 1. Blip: A tool for seeing your internet latency 245 pts 5 hours ago | 88 comments 2. Malicious PyPI packages discovered 630 points 13 hours ago| 283 comments 3. The dynamic incremental compiler o…

HN downweights posts automatically based on the rate of commenting. High commenting rates makes the post less visible because it tends to be controversial and therefore not great reading for HN

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#776
post #581

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person from a minority race and saw how they were treated. That is when I noticed I live in a racist society. I love the economist. Their writing is so good, they are biased but know it, and acknowledge it. Biased, but not bigoted. nYet this article misses the point, I…

Do you live in the U.S.? Because, as a minority myself, I'm really at a loss to understand what you mean by "[we] live in a racist society." Also, what the hell is this supposed to mean: > For doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants (yes) etcetera being from a similar community as your clients is very helpful for your clients. Most folks at Harvard law are going to go to corporate law firms, where most of the clien…

> Most folks at Harvard law are going to go to corporate law firms, where most of the clients are rich white people. Are you suggesting that as a Bangladeshi I'm less helpful to my clients because I'm not from a similar community? Is a lawyer from a less affluent part of Appalachia less helpful?

Yes. Somebody from the same background as you will have a better chance of connecting, having you understand their priors, having you understand their idoms of speech. Many more things.

It does not make you useless to other people, nor make me useless to Bangladeshi. Also when applied in individual cases it can be misleading and confusing. It is a community effect.

For a very confidant client, or a lawyer who is on the autistic spectrum, it matters much less. But for the Bangladeshi just dropped in from Sirajganj whit some money to invest but few contacts it could be a life saver.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#777
post #581

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person from a minority race and saw how they were treated. That is when I noticed I live in a racist society. I love the economist. Their writing is so good, they are biased but know it, and acknowledge it. Biased, but not bigoted. nYet this article misses the point, I…

I think what you describe is indeed a classist society and not a racist one. Maybe what you lack to see through it is the experience of a cultural milieu with different skin colors. I have studied, worked and am friend with a lot of people with North Africa origins, usually from wealthy families, that are now doctors, engineers, academics, … and clients mostly don’t care because we belong to the same class, what matt…

Class and race are both social constructs (class is not an economic construct, as the Economist probably would prefer) so they are mixed up and confounded. Highly correlated here.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#778
post #742
post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I would only look at test scroes like SAT. Nothing else. Maybe few exceptions on relevant competitions like math olympics medalists.

Yeah that’s a terrible approach. All you’d get are kids who are good at testing and nothing else.

Or kids whose parents could afford a prep course or private tutoring.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds silly, until you realize that "African-American" is just code for black, from a time when saying "black" was considered mildly racist.

Seriously...What?!??!

Interesting example: Elon Musk is technically an "African American," except the word is actually used to mean Black American

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#780
post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Let me help put your concerns to rest. If Harvard et al changed their admissions policies to race blind tomorrow, your son still would not get in. How do I know this? You are talking about his prospects as an applica…

You forgot to mention two very important points: 1) The ivy leagues (and many other colleges of the US) shifted from a purely meritocratic assessment to an "all rounder" vetting process of potential candidates simply to eliminate the "undesirables" (at that time, mostly jews). > The first thing to understand is that everything we know about selective college admissions today is less than a century old. So if you go b…

Let me give a less Monty Burns-esque take on things (with one very valid wart):

1. A good history of the SAT and ACT can be found here: https://www.erikthered.com/tutor/sat-act-history-printable.h...

2. Here is another very solid source on the wart (Lowell): https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/27/opinion/harvard-presi...

3. One goal of standardized tests in the early 1900s was to get the better students and a more diverse group of students into the better schools rather than lean very heavily on feeder WASP private schools (which had been standard up until then). There were societal needs that the the existing admissions processes did not address on a number of levels.

4. Eliot, Harvard president in the early 1900s before Lowell, embraced diversity. "Eliot was bragging to The New York Times about Harvard’s racial, ethnic, and religious diversity as well as its economic class diversity."

5. A racist Lowell became president and implemented a Jewish quota in the 1920s.

6. In the 1930s, Conant, Lowell's successor, gradually eased these quotas and focused on using the SAT as less-biased assessment tool. "Eight years after rejecting the SAT for use in admissions, Harvard begins requiring all prospective scholarship students to take the SAT. The president of the university, James Conant, feels that the test provides an accurate assessment of a student's intelligence. (Conant reasons that the SAT could then be used by Harvard to select scholarship candidates from among students other than those from well-known East Coast private schools.) By 1938, all of the College Board member schools will be using the SAT to evaluate scholarship applicants."

7. In summary, Lowell's Jewish quota was only in place for a decade or so (a dark time to be sure). Prior to and after that, diversity found via various forms of merit were aggressively sought after.

8. Some of your quotes seem to suggest that academically strong students are also boring grinds. It is possible to be strong academically while also being well-rounded, regardless of your race. The definition of "well-rounded" may have been tailored during Lowell's time to exclude Jews, but a modern day definition definitely does not exclude any race by design (e.g., it is possible to be an acclaimed Asian athlete, leader, artist, etc.).

9. There are book-length treatments of the subject of Harvard's history of seeking diversity that are quite compelling (noting that Harvard never was and never has been perfect). Rather than read and quote click-bait articles about the topic, I would encourage folks to read one of these books. Student Diversity at the Big Three: Changes at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton Since the 1920s is one possible book, but I'm not sure it's the best (I read a very good one in the 00s, but I cannot remember the title or author). The Chosen is another.

I will close with a quote from the Boston Globe link above:

"Don’t be fooled by those using the Jewish quota of the mid-20th century or charges of discrimination against Asian Americans (also despicable when true, but which the lower courts convincingly found was not the case here) as an excuse to limit the inclusion of Black and Latino students at selective universities. We should be celebrating, not ending, the policies of diversity and inclusion that opened universities to Catholics, Jews, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, women, and other outsiders."

Post reply on HN